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The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

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Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#101

Post by buffalobuffalo »

jll29 wrote: post #78

There is no such thing as a "language brain" or a "math brain" unless you show experimentally that those bunch of neurons can be grouped into two non-overlapping regions dedicated to "language" and "mathematics". Mathematics itself is a human-made formal language that can be bootstrapped from definitions and axioms of logics and set theory, which have to be given in human language first. Experienced mathematicians re…

Yeah, the brain is a sparse MoE. There is a lot of overlap in the hardware of the "language brain" and the "math brain". That being said, I can discuss software concepts in a foreign language, but struggle with basic arithmetic in anything but English. So while the hardware might be the same, the virtualization layer that sits on top might have some kind of compartmentalization.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#102

Post by latexr »

ivape wrote: post #35
odyssey7 wrote: post #28

And yet CS grad programs seem to care about only the math section of the GRE

Societally we made that association, so it's not the programs fault, they simply live the same world we live in. Kurt Vonnegut: See, I came up through a chemistry department. Charlie Rose: Yeah, right. Kurt Vonnegut: And so I wrote and there was nobody there to tell me whether it was any good or not. I was just making my soul grow, writing stories. There's some stuff about his opinion on training for writing that cou…

Video isn’t loading for me. But from the still frame of the preview, it seems to be this one on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROyr83rib3Q

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#103

Post by janalsncm »

> language ability and problem solving skills

First red flag is here. The title rewrote this to be language only. That problem solving skills are relevant is pretty obvious, but language less so.

I’ve been programming for most of my life and I don’t consider myself a very good speaker. My language skills are passable. And learning new languages? Forget it. So I’m skeptical. Let’s look at the study.

First of all, “math” becomes “numeracy”. But I think programming is probably closer to algebra, but even then it’s less strict and easier to debug.

> Assessed using a Rasch-Based Nuemracy Scale which was created by evaluating 18 numeracy questions across multiple measures and determining the 8 most predictive items.

Also, the whole thing is 5 years old now.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#105

Post by tetha »

zahlman wrote: post #62
armchairhacker wrote: post #40

Good code doesn’t just solve a problem, it solves it in a way that’s readable and modular. I think the problem-solving part of coding requires math skills, while the organization part requires writing skills. The organization part affects the problem-solving part, because if you write messy code (that you can’t reread once you forget or extend without rewriting) you’ll quickly get overwhelmed. Writing large math proo…

> Whereas programming has more “small steps”: even someone who’s not smart (but has grit) can write an impressive program, if they write one component at a time and there aren’t too many components that rely on each other. ... In my experience, learning to write one component at a time (and try the code, and make sure it works before proceeding) is itself a skill that many struggle to develop. Similarly for avoiding…

I dislike "everyone can learn to program" because it conflates many, many levels of skills and expertise.

I very much think many people could learn the more advanced Excel Formulas, Power Automate and even simple Bash/PowerShell scripting to make their work more effective. I've met quite a few folks who had been intimidated out of trying who could do it.

On the other hand, how many people on this site could bootstrap a linux kernel on either very new or very old hardware? I know there are some, but they are certainly not the majority. I certainly won't be the first person to get linux and doom to run on a quantum computer.

But that is similar to other professions. Everyone with a largely functioning body can learn to turn a few planks and some metal parts into a functional shed door with some basic tools or to put up a decent brick wall that won't topple over in a month.

That doesn't mean everyone is qualified to pour concrete for a dam or a bridge foundation, or to re-do some historical work in original style.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#106

Post by gitremote »

Absolutely. That's why people can be perfectly fluent in a programming language and a high performer at work, but fail an interview algorithms/leetcode problem in that language, as algorithms are math problems that programmers almost never see at work.

The recruiter labels an algorithm problem as a "coding" test, but it's a math test, and concludes that most applicants who claim to be fluent in a programming language can't code and must have lied on their resume.

For context, I don't mind algorithm tests, but I strongly disagree with recruiters presenting it as a coding assessment.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#108

Post by impossiblefork »

jll29 wrote: post #78

There is no such thing as a "language brain" or a "math brain" unless you show experimentally that those bunch of neurons can be grouped into two non-overlapping regions dedicated to "language" and "mathematics". Mathematics itself is a human-made formal language that can be bootstrapped from definitions and axioms of logics and set theory, which have to be given in human language first. Experienced mathematicians re…

Yes, but there is a visual/spatial ability and a verbal/mathematical, and you can do maths with the visual/spatial ability or with the verbal/mathematical ability.

It leads to different styles of thinking and problem solving.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#109

Post by chrisfosterelli »

scripturial wrote: post #100
jll29 wrote: post #78

There is no such thing as a "language brain" or a "math brain" unless you show experimentally that those bunch of neurons can be grouped into two non-overlapping regions dedicated to "language" and "mathematics". Mathematics itself is a human-made formal language that can be bootstrapped from definitions and axioms of logics and set theory, which have to be given in human language first. Experienced mathematicians re…

> There is no such thing as a "language brain" or a "math brain" Tell that to the people who designed the study, the people that approved the study, and the people that funded the study. At the end of the day, the study set out certain criteria for assessing certain skill types/competencies and divided the people by those well defined criteria. I think it’s pretty hard to argue against the idea that people might have…

I think its worth noting the study did not actually make this claim, the news article did. I suspect the study authors would agree the term "language brain" or "math brain" is misleading.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#110

Post by pier25 »

jll29 wrote: post #78

There is no such thing as a "language brain" or a "math brain" unless you show experimentally that those bunch of neurons can be grouped into two non-overlapping regions dedicated to "language" and "mathematics". Mathematics itself is a human-made formal language that can be bootstrapped from definitions and axioms of logics and set theory, which have to be given in human language first. Experienced mathematicians re…

"language brain" or "math brain" are obviously non-scientific terms.

I think most people would agree that problem solving, expressing ideas verbally, and expressing ideas in math are very different skills.

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