Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

schneier.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 267 posts

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#101

Post by colmvp »

agpen wrote: post #89
karinqe wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a woman acts inappropriately towards a man, he rarely has any option to make her fuck off. "Men don't have to do it"? They can't. It's only that it happens less often (I guess). Seems to me that women have a lot more power in this regard.

When 1 in 4 men get sexually assaulted during their lives, I will start giving one iota of care about poor poor dis-empowered men.

How very sexist.

I don't doubt that worldwide, men suffer sexual and physical assault from the opposite sex at a lower rate than women.

However, in developed countries, I wouldn't be surprised if it's closer than we collectively think. Here is an informative article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/07/feminism... Men are probably less likely to report incidents due to humiliation or rather, lack of action. Checkout comments on stories when boys get sexually molested by female teachers. Oh yeah, the boy is supposed to love it because he's a boy! Very different when the genders are reversed. Castrate the man! Execute him! Or how about physical assault? Did Elin Nordgren serve any time or get lambasted by feminists for assaulting Tiger Woods? Nope. In fact, she got a tidy settlement.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#102

Post by lifbar »

illuminate wrote: post #96
lifbar wrote: post #72

Women want equal right but can't deal with such stuff and thus cries for help? If you can't deal with what you experience there - DON'T GO THERE. Simple. After all you go there just for fun. I was harassed by women and I learned to deal with that. Time women stopped crying and learned to take care of themselves if they want "equal" rights.

Harrassed for being a disturbed creep != having someone grope and put their mouth on you without your permission.

"Harrassed for being a disturbed creep" did you call me "disturbed creep" without knowing how and why I was harassed? Lets say you meant something else.

And by the way, if that was woman groping some man and putting her mouth on on him without permission - noone would care. Simply speaking - sexism works both ways.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#103

Post by MichaelSalib »

asmithmd1 wrote: post #71
blhack wrote: post #40

It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con? Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are offended at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them. That, at least to some of my girl friends, is…

Instead of the red card if someone touches you inappropriately why not slap them in the face - hard.

Escalating to physical violence looks a lot riskier if you're smaller than the person you're striking. And you can't know that the escalation will end with your hitting them: they may hit back, and they may not stop. Moreover, assault is a crime: you may feel justified, but if you can't prove the other guy hit first, you can be stuck.

Finally, women in our society are socialized to be nice, to not make waves, to get along. Maybe you don't like that, but you can't just make decades of socialization that millions of people have undergone disappear because you don't like it.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#104

Post by ekidd »

lifbar wrote: post #72

Women want equal right but can't deal with such stuff and thus cries for help? If you can't deal with what you experience there - DON'T GO THERE. Simple. After all you go there just for fun. I was harassed by women and I learned to deal with that. Time women stopped crying and learned to take care of themselves if they want "equal" rights.

Because women should put up with crotch-grabbing and being licked by strangers? Yuck.

I know lots of really interesting people, male and female, who would stay home rather than put up with that treatment. Let's keep the interesting people, and revoke the badges of the weirdo predators who can't keep their tongues to themselves.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#105

Post by illuminate »

lifbar wrote: post #102
illuminate wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harrassed for being a disturbed creep != having someone grope and put their mouth on you without your permission.

"Harrassed for being a disturbed creep" did you call me "disturbed creep" without knowing how and why I was harassed? Lets say you meant something else. And by the way, if that was woman groping some man and putting her mouth on on him without permission - noone would care. Simply speaking - sexism works both ways.

Because being sexually harassed in the same manner as women do, regularly would give you some understanding and sympathy, not a point of pride to brag about as you are here.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#106

Post by cbs »

agpen wrote: post #94
fein wrote: post #36

DefCon or 5 million college bars across the country? You could have replaced those two terms and ended up with the same article. Perhaps the problem isn't just a nerd demographic issue.

Rape-culture and patriarchy are definitely major society-wide issues but they undeniably find a special welcoming home within geek culture. A culture which supposedly prides itself on merit and intelligence at first glance ought to be most receptive to actually picking up a book and studying social issues, but the reality is instead that we get a social group full of men's right's advocates and evopsych true-believer…

> Rape-culture and patriarchy are definitely major society-wide issues but they undeniably find a special welcoming home within geek culture.

Please cite your statistics. edit: Statistics that the geek culture provides a "more welcoming home" than society at large. I'm not disagreeing with the fact there are society-wide issues, I'd just like you to back up that particular assertion about geek culture.

>A culture which supposedly prides itself on merit and intelligence at first

This is a hacker convention. Not a thing-PG-recontextualized-hacker-as convention.

>the reality is instead that we get a social group full of men's right's advocates and evopsych true-believers and other terrible terrible people.

The broad brushes with which you paint are not helping. Laying inaccurate generalizations like this on the very people in positions to help solve the problem disenchants and disinterests them.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#107

Post by protolif »

blhack wrote: post #40

It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con? Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are offended at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them. That, at least to some of my girl friends, is…

"It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con?"

This. Very much this. The formula is simple: Get a bunch of people drunk, and the lecherous ones will come out of the woodwork. This is not a problem unique to any particular field. In fact, I would go as far as to say this is a non-problem. If you can't deal with it, then stop choosing to hang out in bars.

Often, it is the women who cry the loudest, that crave and seek out the kind of negative attention described here, so that they can boast about their own attractiveness to other females, while pretending to be disgusted.

There are many more severe forms of oppression, that deserve our attention more than this.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#108

Post by learc83 »

blhack wrote: post #77
asmithmd1 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of the red card if someone touches you inappropriately why not slap them in the face - hard.

This is exactly the consensus that all but one of my hacker friends, including the women, have come to. No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face, and most of the people here, since we're, you know, a community are going to physically remove you from the area. Edit: if this wasn't clear, the "I" in this story is would be my female friends.

>No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face

Have fun explaining that to the cops (and the jury).

"After I touched her inappropriately she slapped me, so fearing for my life, I punched her in the face, breaking her nose"

Hell, if you do that you're likely to get punched in the face by a random passerby.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#109

Post by colmvp »

reinhardt wrote: post #97
brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

Ugh.. the last thing we need is to turn this into a general sexual attraction discussion about what (we think) works and what doesn't. It's a way more complex and controversial topic that we don't have to solve in order to address the "women in IT" problem when there is a much simpler solution: DON'T TRY TO HIT ON WOMEN AT CONFERENCES OR OTHER BUSINESS/PROFESSIONAL ENVIRONMENTS AT ALL. PERIOD. There is no shortage of…

"DON'T TRY TO HIT ON WOMEN AT CONFERENCES OR OTHER BUSINESS/PROFESSIONAL ENVIRONMENTS AT ALL. PERIOD."

But that is in itself IS a generalization. I have family members and best friends who met their SO's at conferences or in professional environments. Or you can look at famous people who met their SO's working on the same project.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#110

Post by lifbar »

illuminate wrote: post #105
lifbar wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Harrassed for being a disturbed creep" did you call me "disturbed creep" without knowing how and why I was harassed? Lets say you meant something else. And by the way, if that was woman groping some man and putting her mouth on on him without permission - noone would care. Simply speaking - sexism works both ways.

Because being sexually harassed in the same manner as women do, regularly would give you some understanding and sympathy, not a point of pride to brag about as you are here.

"not a point of pride to brag about as you are here"

Bragging? Really? Pointing out obvious thing that you all knights on high moral horses forgot - woman is not always victim. And if she is perpetrator she more often than not goes free (woman drugs husband, cuts off his penis - not guilty.)

And I am "bragging" here BECAUSE "would give you some understanding and sympathy". I know how women fake their harassment to get attention I feel "understanding and sympathy" for men that was harassed that way.

Post reply on HN