The hospital where staff treat fear of death as well as physical pain • Hacker News Board

Re: The hospital where staff treat fear of death as well as physical pain

#101

Post by MisterBastahrd » Mon, Apr 28, 2025, 7:29 PM UTC

xvector wrote: post #20

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never going to happen. We don't have the technology, we're not going to get the technology, and nobody benefits by having wealthy people around forever. Your body parts will eventually wear out regardless of what you try to do to mitigate the situation, and everybody will get terminal cancer sooner or later regardless of anything else. And even if THAT doesn't get you, an accident eventually will. Doesn't matter if i…

The big assumption in this counterargument is that we stay biological forever. I see biological "immortality" (anti-aging) as a temporary stopgap while we develop gradual replacement and migrate to a synthetic/digital consciousness, hosted on nodes distributed throughout Earth orbit or beyond for fault tolerance and availability. I'd be shocked if this didn't happen in the next thousand years. Needing air/water every…

And then when the hormones are also gone, you won't be you. You won't even be a copy. You'll be a husk pretending to be a person long after the actual person is long gone. You'll be a talking wikipedia article with no ability to anything but regurgitate some of what you already knew, and the vast majority of these things will be of no consequence or use to anyone. We will never need immortality badly enough to spend the kind of resources to come close to achieving it.

Re: The hospital where staff treat fear of death as well as physical pain

#102

Post by philjohn » Mon, Apr 28, 2025, 7:45 PM UTC

jajko wrote: post #91

whalesalad wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I reach that point in my life I’ll probably just put a bullet in my own head. And I don’t want a fancy burial or cremation… toss me in the ground and plant a tree on top of me.

I would prefer ie heroin overdose. Way less messy especially for those who would find me, while having what has been described as an half an hour orgasm (maybe less since its overdose after all). After all all addicts are doing for rest of their addict career is chasing that first ultimate high (at least as per some addicts words, never came even close to such things).

You're often on a syringe driver of constant morphine towards the end in hospice care, either in patient, or out patient.

Re: The hospital where staff treat fear of death as well as physical pain

#103

Post by philjohn » Mon, Apr 28, 2025, 7:46 PM UTC

whalesalad wrote: post #87

philjohn wrote: post #50

That was a difficult read for me - after watching my father die peacefully, and with dignity in a wonderful hospice I can't help but admire the doctors, nurses and other practicioners who dedicate their life to caring for people at the end of theirs. What angers me is that not everyone gets to experience a dignified death; the hospice where my father stayed relies on charitable donations to do their vital work - a de…

When I reach that point in my life I’ll probably just put a bullet in my own head. And I don’t want a fancy burial or cremation… toss me in the ground and plant a tree on top of me.

It often happens much faster than you'd think, and towards the end you're often on constant morphine for comfort.

Re: The hospital where staff treat fear of death as well as physical pain

#104

Post by breckenedge » Mon, Apr 28, 2025, 7:51 PM UTC

magicalhippo wrote: post #98

caseyy wrote: post #2

I don’t fear death, it is natural. I fear the suffering society will put me through when I’m old and ill, because they can’t cope with death. It’s good we are starting to develop dignified death laws. With the world population as it is, more people will die in the next decade than any other in history (even the plagues). Just looking at population graphs, 1B might die between 2050 and 2060. Much suffering can be avoi…

My SO worked at a nursing home which had several elderly with dementia cry out they just wanted to die all day long, day after day. Yet they got their flu shots and got treated for any infections they might get. This went on for the two years my SO worked there. My dad had cancer that spread to his lungs, and then he got pneumonia. The day after being hospitalized, he asked the doctor if it was a chance he'd ever get…

That’s not necessarily a choice that the nursing home can make. Many families struggle with letting a loved one go. Up to a few years ago, I was meeting with an obviously struggling 101yo weekly, and the family refused hospice despite it being covered by Medicare. The family equated hospice with actively killing someone.

Re: The hospital where staff treat fear of death as well as physical pain

#105

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft » Mon, Apr 28, 2025, 7:53 PM UTC

alabastervlog wrote: post #80

kiba wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are different. For example, my fear of death is in the from existential dread. It's an occasional thing. We should probably try harder to make people healthier in general. Much of the frailty of the elderly can be avoided with rigorous exercise. Maybe heart disease and dementia doesn't have to be your fate. I don't know how much longer people will be able to live if they optimize the hell out of their biomarke…

I don't get how people can't be kinda freaked out by the universe subjectively fast-forwarding to its end, to occur at any time between this second and a few decades from now.

What purpose would be served by freaking out? Would freaking out somehow help me to avoid death? Or at least prolong my life? Freaking out in fact shortens my (useful) life because now I've wasted time in some state of agitation that could have been better spent doing virtually anything else.

Hoping I get to see my grandkids. Hell, even see them start to marry off, come to that. But I'll spend what time I've got trying to enjoy the things that are here, now. You should do the same.

Re: The hospital where staff treat fear of death as well as physical pain

#106

Post by kubb » Mon, Apr 28, 2025, 7:54 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #81

caseyy wrote: post #2

I don’t fear death, it is natural. I fear the suffering society will put me through when I’m old and ill, because they can’t cope with death. It’s good we are starting to develop dignified death laws. With the world population as it is, more people will die in the next decade than any other in history (even the plagues). Just looking at population graphs, 1B might die between 2050 and 2060. Much suffering can be avoi…

This sort of utilitarian "unit of suffering" metric has never made much sense to me. 1B people die in a given decade, each perceives or experiences some amount of suffering, so we have say 2B units of suffering, 2 units per person on average. Is anything better or worse if 2B people die instead of 1B with the same aggregate amount of suffering? Average suffering reduced by half! What about 100,000 people instead of 1…

Classical Utilitarianism (Bentham, Mill) is about maximizing overall well-being (or happiness), not just minimizing suffering as a number. It's not just math with units, it's about the quality and context of experiences too.

There's also average utilitarianism which says: maximize the average happiness per person.

Re: The hospital where staff treat fear of death as well as physical pain

#107

Post by Yeul » Mon, Apr 28, 2025, 7:56 PM UTC

The way Dutch people combat the admittedly scary process of dying is by treating it as an event. I think the best comparison is a wedding. You do your rehearsals, pick out music and clothes, train the bridesmaids, pick a venue, call the catering. And then ofcourse you have the administrative stuff to take care off- banking, house, taxes. Time flies until the big day happens.

Re: The hospital where staff treat fear of death as well as physical pain

#108

Post by penguin_booze » Mon, Apr 28, 2025, 7:58 PM UTC

caseyy wrote: post #2

I don’t fear death, it is natural. I fear the suffering society will put me through when I’m old and ill, because they can’t cope with death. It’s good we are starting to develop dignified death laws. With the world population as it is, more people will die in the next decade than any other in history (even the plagues). Just looking at population graphs, 1B might die between 2050 and 2060. Much suffering can be avoi…

> I don’t fear death, it is natural. I fear the suffering society will put me through when I’m old and ill, because they can’t cope with death.

Assisted death--one with dignity--is rare recent development about which I'm genuinely and wholeheartedly happy.

What unsettles me--as rational as I think I'm--is the thought of being born again (duh!). I lead a very comfortable life, but far from "perfect". I can say I'm content. What are the odds that I'll be content in my next life? How likely is it that I'll be born in the right country, to good parents, follow the right religion, and have a brain wired in the right way to make a decent living? I'm not hopeful. So, I've "decided" that I want to be a rock in all my next lives. No emotions, no feelings, no struggle, no pain, no indignation. Just a fricking rock.

Re: The hospital where staff treat fear of death as well as physical pain

#109

Post by UncleOxidant » Mon, Apr 28, 2025, 8:00 PM UTC

magicalhippo wrote: post #98

caseyy wrote: post #2

I don’t fear death, it is natural. I fear the suffering society will put me through when I’m old and ill, because they can’t cope with death. It’s good we are starting to develop dignified death laws. With the world population as it is, more people will die in the next decade than any other in history (even the plagues). Just looking at population graphs, 1B might die between 2050 and 2060. Much suffering can be avoi…

My SO worked at a nursing home which had several elderly with dementia cry out they just wanted to die all day long, day after day. Yet they got their flu shots and got treated for any infections they might get. This went on for the two years my SO worked there. My dad had cancer that spread to his lungs, and then he got pneumonia. The day after being hospitalized, he asked the doctor if it was a chance he'd ever get…

My 85yo dad just spent 3 weeks in a nursing home because he had a digestive issue that weakened him. The stay made his mental and physical health very much worse. He didn't get enough sleep in there (lots of noise all night) and the food was abysmal - he already had problems with sarcopenia and they weren't feeding him nearly enough protein. I'd call him up or visit and he seemed to be having trouble separating his dreams from reality - he was hallucinating which isn't something that was happening before. At the 21 day point they released him (due to medicare limits) and I took him home to his house and stayed with him for 2 weeks making sure he had good food, good sleep and some sun every day. By the end of those 2 weeks he was remarkably better and I was able to leave him on his own. Nursing facilities are necessary for some, but for many they're making their problems much worse.

Re: The hospital where staff treat fear of death as well as physical pain

#110

Post by csense » Mon, Apr 28, 2025, 8:03 PM UTC

cess11 wrote: post #96

xvector wrote: post #10

I genuinely think death will be conquered, for all practical purposes, within this century. In our vast 300 thousand year history, we are likely in the last century of mortal humans, and in the last millennium of biological ones. Future generations will wonder at our coping mechanisms for something so tragic and horrifying as death, and wonder why we didn't try harder, earlier. Why isn't the longevity problem our #1…

We've wrecked our habitat and keep most of humanity in some form or other of slavery, and there are exactly zero credible social movements aiming for another course. Why would we want to watch this deterioration and tyranny go on for centuries more? As for 'non-biological' humans, I'm assuming you believe in some soul that could be transfered from your body to a computer? If so, that's clearly into deeply religious t…

> You are an analog being, you view the world as analog projections onto a mammal cortex. That is fundamentally, ontologically very different from digitally virtual environments.

No it's not. If you accept "mind is brain" (i.e. consciousness is a phenomena within known or knowable laws of physics), a digital virtual environment that simulates the laws of physics (to arbitrarily good precision) could have brains (and therefore minds) running inside it that are indistinguishable (to arbitrarily good precision) from the real thing. [1] [2]

> currently billions are suffering under the rule of a few generations that refuse to let go of power even though they are well beyond what is the common age of retirement in vast parts of the world. If allowed they will for sure continue this refusal and they signal clearly that they are going to kill and maim a lot of people just to try and stay in power now. Locking borders against climate refugees, taking resources from things like education and art and medicine and pushing it into war industry, inventing new insidious forms of surveillance and control to try and make sure dissent becomes impossible.

I'd sure as hell rather be alive now than in the 1800's, or the 1700's, or the 1600's. Or the Middle Ages, or classical antiquity, or ancient times, or pre-history. Life sucks for billions of people compared to Western standards but life's also better for billions of people than it's ever been before. Humanity's mostly made forward progress over the long arc of time, and I'm skeptical of claims that such progress is doomed to permanently halt anytime soon.

[1] I could replace "to arbitrarily good precision" with a proper mathematical formulation. But the technical details of the epsilons and deltas don't affect the thrust of the philosophical argument. I'm happy to leave a more precise epsilon-delta phrasing of my idea as an exercise to the reader(s).

[2] Of course the equivalence goes both ways; I hardly need to explain to HN that it's possible to build digital computers in our analog universe!