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Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

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101–110 of 148 posts

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#101

Only marginally relevant, this is one reason I use swamp coolers in my home. My windows are open 24/7, 4 months of the year. I hear the birds in the morning and it’s so much more pleasant than shutting in an air conditioned box, in my opinion

Does the humidity not cause problems? What is the relative humidity in your home?

Unlikely to be a problem if the windows are open, in most climates.

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#102
post #95
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is a long game, it's not about sales where you need to sell right now. Extreme results will be attempted to be replicated, which in turn costs a lot of funding. That is money and time, sometimes a whole persons career. This money and time is taken directly away from funding other, potentially more worthy or more likely to be correct studies. There is no point of looking at every (flawed) study in the most pos…

> There is no point of looking at every (flawed) study in the most positive way This line epitomizes the nonsense in the discussion. I didn't say every study, you can't know it's flawed without seriously examining it, and I didn't say in the most positive way at all. By using these exaggerations, you damage any serious discussion - you give people nothing to respond to except your emotional state. What I said was, th…

I did not say this study is flawed or that every study is flawed. And I have made no exaggerations or said that you personally look at it the most positive way.

Reading comprehension is important, and especially important in a discussion like this.

I do however really mean that some studies are not worth looking at all in more detail: if the methodology is flawed, the results are meaningless. At most the premise of such a hypothetical (not saying this one necessarily!) study could be used as an idea for further research, but not to build knowledge on or derive knowledge from the results.

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#103
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Based on your comment, the effect could be larger as well as smaller. The reality of any underpowered study could always be “larger as well as smaller”. This statement doesn’t add anything to the conversation. The mistake is pivoting around poorly structured and underpowered research. > All research is met on HN by people who know better and will tell you why it's flawed. This is a misunderstanding. People who know…

[flagged]

99% of times it's smaller, saying there is an equal chance it's smaller or bigger is also false. It could be, probability is strong that it won't.

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#104
post #30
post #9

I'm all for installing air filters in classrooms for a number of reasons, but I also think the extreme results from this study aren't going to hold up to further research. From the paper: > To do so, I leverage a unique setting arising from the largest gas leak in United States history, whereby the offending gas company installed air filters in every classroom, office and common area for all schools within five miles…

Based on your comment, the effect could be larger as well as smaller. All research is met on HN by people who know better and will tell you why it's flawed. There isn't a greater collection of expertise in the history of the world than on HN. Edit: I meant to add: What value can we find in this research? It wasn't published as scripture, the perfect answer to all our problems. It's one study of some interesting event…

> All research is met on HN by people who know better and will tell you why it's flawed. There isn't a greater collection of expertise in the history of the world than on HN.

It seemed like a pretty valid criticism. These studies should be taken with a massive pinch of salt because they're fairly uncontrolled.

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#105
post #9

I'm all for installing air filters in classrooms for a number of reasons, but I also think the extreme results from this study aren't going to hold up to further research. From the paper: > To do so, I leverage a unique setting arising from the largest gas leak in United States history, whereby the offending gas company installed air filters in every classroom, office and common area for all schools within five miles…

I would also expect the estimated magnitude of the effect to go down over time, but that's just my general attitude to these kinds of things, the fact is that the discontinuity design that they use already accounts for variations between classes, teachers, schools, years. The way it works is that some unexpected event that applies to some people but not others is taken to represent a natural experiment, and then variation between groups before the event is compared to variation between groups after the event. The comparison is never against no variation.

The smoking gun is really in Table 3 and Table 4, where you can see that the effects that were observed are compatible with a population effect of 0, or alternatively you can look at Figure 2 and note that you could draw a straight line (no effect) within the confidence bands. Doesn't mean the effect is not there, but that there's insufficient evidence that it is, and that we should indeed be very careful about taking the estimates at face value.

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#106
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having tried to dig into this a while ago, they installed carbon filters. Most of the stuff for sale as “carbon” filters has too little carbon to do much. You want quite a lot, and, for some gasses, you can get special impregnated carbon or other media.

Tangential, are there DIY methods of activated carbon? I got pellets, impregnated sheets and a packaged one for my air purifier, but I dont know when they are helping and when they are exhausted.

To tell when carbon filters are exhausted, the best way is to use an indoor VOC monitor.

Air filter AC is specially prepared, so making your own DIY charcoal (while possible) isn't nearly as effective. You can mostly regenerate/desorb the carbon by heating it to 400F. Never use your regular oven though, not least of which because it reeks. Get a cheap toaster oven and disposable foil pans and do it outside, in a location where it can't possibly catch anything on fire.

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#107
post #35

Anecdote: Our daycare was a plague ship right after covid 'ended'. None of the kids had any immunities, and they made up for it in a hurry. Man, what a terrible year. As a result, the daycare got a grant to get N-95 air filters installed and those UV lights that Chinese restaurants tend to have in the bathrooms. One per room. What. A. Difference. The infants and kids coming up are not nearly as sick, and when they do…

Nice story. I can believe it. I was surprised that you mentioned the RSV vaccine. Last I checked, they were still working on it. I was wrong: There are three competitors now: (1) Arexvy (GSK), (2) Abrysvo (Pfizer), and (3) Mresvia (Moderna)

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_syncytial_virus_va...

Normally, I use this clinic in Thailand to compare prices for vaccines: https://www.thaitravelclinic.com/cost.html

The RSV vaccine is crazy expensive, even more than the HPV one. Over 200 USD is incredibly expensive in a developing country (like Thailand).

    > those UV lights that Chinese restaurants tend to have in the bathrooms
I never heard of this. Does anyone have a link to one of these on Amazon or Alibaba? I am curious to learn more.

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#109
post #30
post #9

I'm all for installing air filters in classrooms for a number of reasons, but I also think the extreme results from this study aren't going to hold up to further research. From the paper: > To do so, I leverage a unique setting arising from the largest gas leak in United States history, whereby the offending gas company installed air filters in every classroom, office and common area for all schools within five miles…

Based on your comment, the effect could be larger as well as smaller. All research is met on HN by people who know better and will tell you why it's flawed. There isn't a greater collection of expertise in the history of the world than on HN. Edit: I meant to add: What value can we find in this research? It wasn't published as scripture, the perfect answer to all our problems. It's one study of some interesting event…

> All research is met on HN by people who know better and will tell you why it's flawed

It is almost certainly flawed, and it is probably wrong: https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo...

If you are discussing research at all it is important to discuss the flaws too. The alternative I can see would be to take every published paper as proven true even though we know this is not the case.

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#110
post #35

Anecdote: Our daycare was a plague ship right after covid 'ended'. None of the kids had any immunities, and they made up for it in a hurry. Man, what a terrible year. As a result, the daycare got a grant to get N-95 air filters installed and those UV lights that Chinese restaurants tend to have in the bathrooms. One per room. What. A. Difference. The infants and kids coming up are not nearly as sick, and when they do…

I wonder how much of the improvement was due to reversion to the mean. When bringing everyone back, you would expect a sharp peak of infections which would decay to normal levels after a while - filters or not. I'm sure they do still have some positive effect though.
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