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Should managers still code?

theengineeringmanager.substack.com

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Re: Should managers still code?

#101

Post by roenxi »

alkonaut wrote: post #32
kevmo314 wrote: post #24

> Do code reviews. Don't just skim PRs (sorry, reader!), but really dig into them: run the branch locally, test it, think critically about the design and the implementation, and provide feedback. Record a video of your review to highlight things that could be better. Please no! Most managers want to increase output and engineers are aware of that. It is exceptionally frustrating when your manager tells you during you…

Anything that can be done in a follow-up shouldn't have to block a PR. But if the architecture is wrong, it's better to fix before than after. You are speeding your teams throughput by pointing out the problem earlier rather than later. But I don't think a manager necessarily needs to be at this level of detail.

> But if the architecture is wrong, it's better to fix before than after.

Although this is true; if the manager is thinking about and getting involved in architecture after the PR is written it does suggest something has gone wrong. If there are architectural considerations then it is good to discuss them with the coder before they start developing.

PR review is a great time to pick up subtle bugs, do last-line sanity checks or get used to someone's style but if they are a bad arena for combating most code issues. If they are picking up design problems there is probably a process flaw to be corrected.

Re: Should managers still code?

#102

Post by ge96 »

vrosas wrote: post #97
dietr1ch wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Reducing dev friction. This is so important, my managers who didn't code pretended things weren't too bad and took a "just deal with it" attitude whenever I proposed going for a QoL improvement.

On the flip side I had a manager who had written a lot of the codebase before I joined and had a terrible time allowing anyone to touch his precious baby, regardless of how much his prior ”art” was hurting us, our productivity, and by extension the company.

Yeah... I said it was a "flaming pos" I felt bad about that. But he won't let me add tests so idk whatever. (we prototype software so speed is the main goal but yeah, stuff starts breaking, backtracking, hey... tests)

Re: Should managers still code?

#103

Post by dv_dt »

andoando wrote: post #99
n_u wrote: post #37

Strong yes for 3 reasons 1. Reducing dev friction. When I had managers who coded they were ruthless about removing friction in the dev and deployment pipeline because they had to deal with it too. If build times went up, deployment infrastructure broke or someone’s PR broke dev they would roll it back immediately. If someone consistently blocks PRs the manager noticed the trend and would address it. 2. You get a much…

I don't see why you need to be writing code to understand all of this. It can help, but almost everything you said is ascertained from daily syncs

Fewer or shorter daily syncs is a plus

Re: Should managers still code?

#104

Post by webdever »

n_u wrote: post #37

Strong yes for 3 reasons 1. Reducing dev friction. When I had managers who coded they were ruthless about removing friction in the dev and deployment pipeline because they had to deal with it too. If build times went up, deployment infrastructure broke or someone’s PR broke dev they would roll it back immediately. If someone consistently blocks PRs the manager noticed the trend and would address it. 2. You get a much…

I tend to agree but, playing devil's advocate, is this true for other roles? Does a movie director need to know how to build sets? How to sew costumes? How to use Blender/Maya/Houdini? My manager can code, used to code, sometimes does code, but they aren't familiar with their team's current work.

Like imagine you were a coding manager 10 years ago with AI experience. Sometime over the last 10 years your team does AI infra. You, as a manager and as an IC, have zero AI experience (you've never trained a model, never used a trained model, never using any of the various AI frameworks). Are you still okay to manage this team or should you be replaced with someone who does have that experience?

Re: Should managers still code?

#105

Post by whstl »

apwell23 wrote: post #55
n_u wrote: post #37

Strong yes for 3 reasons 1. Reducing dev friction. When I had managers who coded they were ruthless about removing friction in the dev and deployment pipeline because they had to deal with it too. If build times went up, deployment infrastructure broke or someone’s PR broke dev they would roll it back immediately. If someone consistently blocks PRs the manager noticed the trend and would address it. 2. You get a much…

At the same time, they also tend to start interfering in the solutions proposed by their team. It hard to stave off that temptation.

First: it's not "interference" if they are also part of the team.

Second: If their ass is on the line, then they DO get a bigger say. They are paid for seeing potential problems, guiding the team, among other things.

Re: Should managers still code?

#106

Post by theresistor »

webdever wrote: post #104
n_u wrote: post #37

Strong yes for 3 reasons 1. Reducing dev friction. When I had managers who coded they were ruthless about removing friction in the dev and deployment pipeline because they had to deal with it too. If build times went up, deployment infrastructure broke or someone’s PR broke dev they would roll it back immediately. If someone consistently blocks PRs the manager noticed the trend and would address it. 2. You get a much…

I tend to agree but, playing devil's advocate, is this true for other roles? Does a movie director need to know how to build sets? How to sew costumes? How to use Blender/Maya/Houdini? My manager can code, used to code, sometimes does code, but they aren't familiar with their team's current work. Like imagine you were a coding manager 10 years ago with AI experience. Sometime over the last 10 years your team does AI…

> I tend to agree but, playing devil's advocate, is this true for other roles? Does a movie director need to know how to build sets? How to sew costumes? How to use Blender/Maya/Houdini?

I don't know that much about movie making, but my understanding is that there would be managers and/or leads within each specialty, who are (among other things) managing the interaction between their specialty and the director / producers.

That seems pretty comparable to what's being discussed here.

Re: Should managers still code?

#108

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

webdever wrote: post #104
n_u wrote: post #37

Strong yes for 3 reasons 1. Reducing dev friction. When I had managers who coded they were ruthless about removing friction in the dev and deployment pipeline because they had to deal with it too. If build times went up, deployment infrastructure broke or someone’s PR broke dev they would roll it back immediately. If someone consistently blocks PRs the manager noticed the trend and would address it. 2. You get a much…

I tend to agree but, playing devil's advocate, is this true for other roles? Does a movie director need to know how to build sets? How to sew costumes? How to use Blender/Maya/Houdini? My manager can code, used to code, sometimes does code, but they aren't familiar with their team's current work. Like imagine you were a coding manager 10 years ago with AI experience. Sometime over the last 10 years your team does AI…

In any industry, if you want a team to work well, you have to have someone with both authority and hands-on experience who’s responsible for providing day-to-day guidance. Sometimes that person is called a “supervisor” or “tech lead” instead of “manager”, although this typically implies some division of responsibilities as well; no reason the person providing guidance necessarily has to be the same person reporting to leadership or hiring and firing.

Re: Should managers still code?

#109

Post by etamponi »

No. The amount of work that a manager has to handle to do their job right is incompatible with coding at a professional rate. If you have a manager that codes, then they won't have (enough) time to:

- Write and design your packets (if in a corporation), or your career path (if in a smaller company)

- Align with other teams, get consensus, shield you from politics beyond your level.

- Make long term planning and making sure your team and neighboring teams follow it.

- Listen to you and your colleagues and handle conflicts.

EDIT: forgive me for not reading TFA first. I won't change my comment as it aligns very well with the article. I still think that the answer to the "should code" question is no, not maybe... Let's not try to overload and overcomplicate what "coding" means.

Re: Should managers still code?

#110

Post by option »

etamponi wrote: post #109

No. The amount of work that a manager has to handle to do their job right is incompatible with coding at a professional rate. If you have a manager that codes, then they won't have (enough) time to: - Write and design your packets (if in a corporation), or your career path (if in a smaller company) - Align with other teams, get consensus, shield you from politics beyond your level. - Make long term planning and makin…

I am a manger and the best I can do is occasionally fix minor bugs and improve public docs. I feel like doing that is very important to better “stay in touch” with the product.
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