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Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

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101–110 of 208 posts

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#101

I'm convinced Herbert had some deep knowledge of psi phenomena. His descriptions of truthsayers reading people, timelines, race consciousness, and prescience are very similar to real experiences. His emphasis that it emerges through a combination of genetics and training of subtle awareness, plus the suggestion compounds could provide access to a state that could be sustained without them - also ring very true. The e…

Herbert and similar are the release of information, the main "psi phenomenon" explored over the XX century being precisely the remotely induced belief in "psi phenomena". That rabbit hole goes deep, though I have my doubts as to whether it leads out.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#102

I'm convinced Herbert had some deep knowledge of psi phenomena. His descriptions of truthsayers reading people, timelines, race consciousness, and prescience are very similar to real experiences. His emphasis that it emerges through a combination of genetics and training of subtle awareness, plus the suggestion compounds could provide access to a state that could be sustained without them - also ring very true. The e…

Herbert and similar are the release of information, the main "psi phenomenon" explored over the XX century being precisely the remotely induced belief in "psi phenomena". That rabbit hole goes deep, though I have my doubts as to whether it leads out .

No, psi predates modern sci fi and experiences of it are not generated by that. Belief is easy to find in preceding centuries too

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#103
post #82

I'm convinced Herbert had some deep knowledge of psi phenomena. His descriptions of truthsayers reading people, timelines, race consciousness, and prescience are very similar to real experiences. His emphasis that it emerges through a combination of genetics and training of subtle awareness, plus the suggestion compounds could provide access to a state that could be sustained without them - also ring very true. The e…

i just got downvoted for saying elsewhere that this "needs an /s" - but this either does, or you need some help.

Thanks for the help!

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#104
post #90
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i just got downvoted for saying elsewhere that this "needs an /s" - but this either does, or you need some help.

> you need some help That seems a bit strong given all the wild stuff believe in a religious context.

Don’t even need religion to see wild stuff, or to know that your intuition has something to it beyond calculation from experience.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#105

When I finally got around to reading Seven Pillars , I wasn't too far in before I was convinced Herbert had the book on his desk the whole time he was writing Dune . So many minor similarities, little scenes that don't quite match up but if you squint they do. Even the arc toward eventually committing war crimes, while seeking some great end for the people he's leading, feels like a connection. But also little stuff…

What's ironic is how people often point to plot points in many franchises (Star Wars, GoT, etc) as being derivative of Dune... Yet Dune itself is fairly derivative of other works

All creative work is derivative.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting point of view, considering how Baron Harkonnen was depicted in Dune. I mean, was the life in Empire better or worse after he took power? Did life of common citizen changed much? My view was that he basically just replaced Emperor by himself and most of things was still the same. He even married the princess just for pretence. My view was that Herbert was trying to show how we could try to direct huma…

The fremen jihad killed 61 billion people across the empire, including the sterilization of 90 whole planets, per details in Dune Messiah (quoting from a wiki, I don't have this kind of memory). It may be that life in the empire after this was over returned more or less to the same as what was there before, for those that survived - though I don't think the books go into any significant detail. Life on Dune was defin…

It may be because I have read this like 20 years ago but I remember something in a sense of accomplishment from Leto II when he was killed. Like: there is no way of stopping it now - the spread of humanity in the universe.

So according to me first book was a bit dark: - Paul accomplishing his goal but failing ultimatively - per what you are saying - starting the jihad - In the second he is killed but we have his children - so again a bit dark but with hope. - In the third we have - making a new empire and change from desert to a green planet - so again hope for something better coming even if it is a but slow (god-emperor living for hundreds of years) - Then we have really two strange books but last one, at least last written by Herbert, ends with one character asking other one if the purpose of all those events is understood, and the second chacter realizes this purpose with kind of awe.

So to me in overall Dune was a positive tale. according to you it is just grim sentence: do not fall for the words of false prophet. Imho if this would be just it, would be little sad.

But maybe I should read them again maybe after so many years, the reception will be different.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#107
post #42
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) from SE Asia for European consumption and packing ship with gold bullion in exchange. There were many actual "spice wars" fought in the region to wipe out competing crops, to build alliances, and later betray those local allies, etc.

> The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) Only ginger and turmeric are found below soil, and even then you wouldn't usually describe farmers as "literally mining for potatoes."

"Mine" can also imply "exploit".

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#108
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, using the word "literally" is a poor choice. "Figuratively" would be better, or even just leave out "literally" and allow "mining" to be interpreted by the reader.

It was deliberate choice in a sub thread that's literally about literary metaphors. As a native english reader, writer and speaker of some six decades I grasp the tension in the use of ' literally "airquoted" ' and embrace it. I also enjoy Riddley Walker , the first edition of Clockwork Orange (sans lexicographic annexure), and the outrageously provocative shock value of the opening sentence of Burgess's panoramic sa…

> I grasp the tension in the use of ' literally "airquoted" ' and embrace it

I can appreciate that and hope that I added to the tension.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#109
I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif.

He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic culture too) but also give it a central place in the economy and functioning of the empire.

What if a visionary substance was the real deal that gave you insight and precognition? What a rebel leader took full advantage of such a substance? What if that was combined with religious fervour?

Dune is basically space war + outsider Messiah + Islam + psychedelics

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#110
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Camps it up too much?! Exactly the right amount. Except the negotiation scene with Auda. He always seemed a touch too sarcastic in his delivery there, and it makes Auda seem foolish, which makes the scene worse. Like that one awkward cut in the middle of Jaws, this bugs me every time I watch it. Made even worse because the scene’s also wonderful, but that flaw… frustrating. But god, the rest? It makes him otherworldl…

Well, I did say "a bit" - and it is obviously a brilliant non-boring film. Actually, this has made me put "Pillars of Wisdom", which I never read before, on my Kindle to-read list.

Yeah, I wasn't really trying to push back too hard, just taking it as a chance to banter about a movie I really like :-)

Some of it's acting styles, too. You can see it in lots of the characters, a bit of what reads as over-acting today. More stage influence. Having watched a lot of older movies, I get the sense both that film acting styles developed (not necessarily improved, but, maybe) over time, and that for a long while more styles were within the range of "normal" that an audience might not be surprised or put-off by, while today the range of normal styles is much narrower and you rarely see other approaches outside of really niche films or some foreign film markets (Indian cinema!)

Pillars is great, highly recommended. It's extremely different from the film, too—where the film presents a practically mythic figure (and his fall) and is bent entirely toward that purpose, the book is (perhaps contrary to what one might expect) relatively humble, even self-deprecating, and grounded. And Lawrence's writing is outstanding, clear and full of beautiful sentences, phrases, and passages—his fancy education really paid off in that department.

He also penned a translation of the Odyssey (but not the Iliad) which happens to be a personal favorite. I stumbled on and read it well before I realized it was him, since he published that one under the pen name "TE Shaw", which I didn't recognize. Not a tightly-faithful translation, not a verse translation either, but reads very modern in the telling, without feeling anachronistic or losing the sense that you're reading an ancient epic, if that makes sense, and also not far enough away from the original text to be a retelling rather than a translation.

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