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The OBS Project is threatening Fedora Linux with legal action

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Re: The OBS Project is threatening Fedora Linux with legal action

#101
post #3

who should do packaging for each distro? - upstream maintainer: too much work. each distro requires certain best practices/convention. - distro: may not meet certain standard set by upstream maintainer.

Whoever's going to do the best job. Sometimes that's the distro packager, sometimes it's the upstream app developer. With complex applications with lots of dependencies and a large surface area for breakage between versions of dependencies, it's far more likely that the upstream developer will be in a position to do a good job than a distro packager who's responsible for 100 other packages, and maybe never actually uses the application, especially when they're constrained by distro policy on vendored dependencies or multiple library versions (which, like, I get the reason for, it sucks for a security fix to need applying in many different places, but it's a policy that will inevitably create bugs).

This is something which grates when reading the defense of Fedora's flatpak repo in the thread linked elsewhere in the comments, claiming that Fedora is going to package with much higher quality and more testing. I can believe that relative to some rando 3rd party on the internet, maybe (at least that rando probably has packaged it because they would like to use it personally), but relative to the developers themselves? I think that's pretty unlikely.

Re: The OBS Project is threatening Fedora Linux with legal action

#102

This seems like a flashback to the xscreensaver fights with Debian of yore, given that the entire fight seems to distill to "OBS is shipping EOL Qt because of unfixed regressions in newer Qt, Fedora views shipping EOL Qt as unjustifiable neglect and repackaged it with newer Qt, which, as described, breaks things." [1] For those who don't have that in their context - jwz got very upset at people reporting bugs against…

Don't link to this guy's site. He has a serious personal problem with every reader of HN (including the vast majority he's never met and knows nothing about) and serves an NSFW image to anybody that has this site in the referrer request header.

You can hate jwz as much as you want but the fact remains that probably 95% of ycombinator funded startups couldn't exist without making extensive use of the gpl, bsd, Apache and similar licensed software produced by a lot of open source curmudgeons and greybeards.

Many of whom share his same opinion on VCs and late stage capitalism.

Re: The OBS Project is threatening Fedora Linux with legal action

#103
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm a bit disappointed at how quickly the perception turned against OBS. Maybe I'm missing something, but their "threats" actually seem pretty reasonable: They asked Fedora to stop shipping a broken version of OBS/make it clear that the Fedora version is unofficial, they got absolutely no response for three weeks, then they requested that Fedora cease using the OBS trademarks. This is not like xscreensaver, thi…

I wasn't trying to suggest I thought OBS was in the wrong here, to be clear, just that the debate between maintainers and developers, and not wanting to get bugs for things that were external, reminded me of that exchange. There's plenty of other examples, of course - one that springs to mind was when Ubuntu shipped a patch of their own design in OpenZFS that caused data loss, and it got reported to upstream.

To be fair, not necessarily singling out your comment: I've seen mixed sentiment around the net. I think the characterization of the threats as being "legal threats" makes people more prone to see this as the OBS project being vexatious, but it seems like it's more a last resort to get Fedora to even pay attention.

And credit to Fedora, it looks like they're working quickly to fix the problem now. It's pretty obvious it wasn't malice that led them to not respond quickly.

Re: The OBS Project is threatening Fedora Linux with legal action

#104
post #54
post #20

Lots of Linux-related drama on HN lately. Maybe someone should offer free conflict resolution classes for libre software maintainers.

The "Linux-related drama" is child's play compared to what I have seen occur within corporate governance meetings.

Hey remember that time that Sam Altman got fired, started a mutiny, then took over and ~executed~ fired everyone who stood against him?

Crazy how much drama happens in open projects like openAI.

Re: The OBS Project is threatening Fedora Linux with legal action

#105
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the specific argument being made here, is that the technical details of how Fedora implements this mean that people who do not read carefully and click a checkbox may attempt to install the official flatpak version and get Fedora's rebuild of it instead, with no obvious cue that they did so, other than the bugs that they then go report, not understanding the internals of Fedora's opinions on flatpaks. I suppo…

I think it is possible that OBS could make that nuanced argument in court: that what Fedora is doing here confuses consumers specifically because of how they stack multiple default repos and override the 1st party package. But it would hinge on whether consumers are confused about the product they're getting, and I think that's unlikely to succeed. Notably, I think the fact that users are going to the OBS project to…

Trademark isn't only about the ownership of the brand. Its about who can use the brand on what.

By using the brand on something else, the reputation can be damaged

Re: The OBS Project is threatening Fedora Linux with legal action

#106
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is possible that OBS could make that nuanced argument in court: that what Fedora is doing here confuses consumers specifically because of how they stack multiple default repos and override the 1st party package. But it would hinge on whether consumers are confused about the product they're getting, and I think that's unlikely to succeed. Notably, I think the fact that users are going to the OBS project to…

Trademark isn't only about the ownership of the brand. Its about who can use the brand on what. By using the brand on something else, the reputation can be damaged

Is somebody using the brand on something that isn't OBS?

https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mozillateam/firefox/firefox.ja... is the config for what becomes Ubuntu's firefox package

https://gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinux/packaging/packages/fi... is the equivalent for Arch

Both apply different configurations, use different versions of dependencies, and in Arch's case applies a patch to the upstream code.

Which of them isn't Firefox?

Re: The OBS Project is threatening Fedora Linux with legal action

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't link to this guy's site. He has a serious personal problem with every reader of HN (including the vast majority he's never met and knows nothing about) and serves an NSFW image to anybody that has this site in the referrer request header.

You can hate jwz as much as you want but the fact remains that probably 95% of ycombinator funded startups couldn't exist without making extensive use of the gpl, bsd, Apache and similar licensed software produced by a lot of open source curmudgeons and greybeards. Many of whom share his same opinion on VCs and late stage capitalism.

> You can hate jwz as much as you want

I don't hate him and didn't write anything of the sort. I've never met him. He might as well be the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny as fas as I'm concerned.

> the fact remains that probably 95% of ycombinator funded startups couldn't exist without making extensive use of the gpl, bsd, Apache and similar licensed software produced by a lot of open source curmudgeons and greybeards. Many of whom share his same opinion on VCs and late stage capitalism.

I've been using FOSS for personal use since I was a child. I'm a literal card-carrying supporter of the FSF. I'm more passionate about it than I am shitting on random people on the internet. If he has a problem with VCs then he can spam them with pictures of genitalia and ad-hominem attacks, not me, who's just some random dude who _isn't_ worth millions of dollars from a software business exit (along with thousands of others on this site).

Re: The OBS Project is threatening Fedora Linux with legal action

#108
post #100

This seems like a flashback to the xscreensaver fights with Debian of yore, given that the entire fight seems to distill to "OBS is shipping EOL Qt because of unfixed regressions in newer Qt, Fedora views shipping EOL Qt as unjustifiable neglect and repackaged it with newer Qt, which, as described, breaks things." [1] For those who don't have that in their context - jwz got very upset at people reporting bugs against…

I don't understand what the big deal was there. Debian has its own bug tracker for all of its packages so the distro maintainers get bothered about bugs in old packages shipped by the stable version of Debian rather than upstream developers. JWZ decided to voluntarily subscribe to the Debian bug tracker for his package and then add a nag screen and start a flame war over them shipping an old version.

When you look at the about box, does it say Debian Screensaver based on xscreensaver, or does it say xscreensaver? When you Google the name of the program, whose website comes up first?

Re: The OBS Project is threatening Fedora Linux with legal action

#109

Why would fedora have their own version of OBS studio when the package is already supported by the official team on flathub? Isn't this exactly the reason why flatpak was created, to avoid all the needless packaging that every distro had to do in order to install the program?

From what I've read the Fedora project has an interest in providing solely open source and non patent encumbered software like codecs. Which sounds like something OBS may infringe on

I heard it was a Fedora-wide effort to make its own flatpaks, but I don't really know why.

Re: The OBS Project is threatening Fedora Linux with legal action

#110
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trademark isn't only about the ownership of the brand. Its about who can use the brand on what. By using the brand on something else, the reputation can be damaged

Is somebody using the brand on something that isn't OBS? https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mozillateam/firefox/firefox.ja... is the config for what becomes Ubuntu's firefox package https://gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinux/packaging/packages/fi... is the equivalent for Arch Both apply different configurations, use different versions of dependencies, and in Arch's case applies a patch to the upstream code. Which of them isn'…

I worked for a company that sold high-end imaging equipment.

They had distribution networks, authorized to carry their brand.

But there were also “gray market” distributors, that would do things like resell foreign market gear, or devices that were separated from sales promotion bundles.

These were our brand, but the company would not support them. No hardware fixes (unless paid), no firmware upgrades, and no marketing support.

Often, the savings were minimal. It was expensive gear; even at a discount.

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