Cheap solar power is sending electrical grids into a death spiral

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 14, 2025, 11:59 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #101

LorenPechtel wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batteries are not a grid scale solution. What we see at grid scale are batteries being used for quick response power while other generators are being spun up. The thing is the grid very much doesn't like it when demand exceeds supply. Systems shut down to protect themselves and you either dump loads very quickly or suffer a cascade failure (see the 1965 blackout--and note that that only stopped growing when the opera…

... you started your comment with "batteries are not a grid scale solution" and then you described one of the primary reasons batteries are useful at grid scale. I don't get it, did you put an extra "not" in your opening sentence?

Post by Akronymus » Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 1:46 AM UTC

afpx wrote: post #88

r00fus wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hubris in this article is unreal: it's posing that privately owned utilities are a good thing and that bypassing them is some crime that's done by ratepayers. I hope that business model dies in a fire. Instead the entire paradigm of centralized generation may need to be called into question and we should instead be focusing on a hybrid centralized baseline + local generation and storage. Places like China do fine…

I used to build microgrids and work closely with utilities - generation, transmission, and distribution. This was probably 15 years ago, but they talked about the 'solar death spiral' even back then. In my opinion, a lot had to do with how they set retail rates. The retail electric companies set different rate categories and tiers. Most residential customers don't realize that they're often subsidizing commercial and…

Post by choilive » Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 5:14 AM UTC

Akronymus wrote: post #104

afpx wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to build microgrids and work closely with utilities - generation, transmission, and distribution. This was probably 15 years ago, but they talked about the 'solar death spiral' even back then. In my opinion, a lot had to do with how they set retail rates. The retail electric companies set different rate categories and tiers. Most residential customers don't realize that they're often subsidizing commercial and…

I thought industrial power consumers paid more because of inductive/capacitive phase shifting.

Post by idiotsecant » Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 5:32 AM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #21

PlunderBunny wrote: post #9

> "lots of self-generated power will ultimately be wasted." This is sunlight falling on a roof. If you convert it into electricity but then don't use that electricity, is it really a waste? It's like saying that the overflow from my water tank that collects rain water off the roof is 'wasting' water. It could be argued that it's a waste in the sense that the generated electricity could have gone to someone else if th…

The hubris in this article is unreal: it's posing that privately owned utilities are a good thing and that bypassing them is some crime that's done by ratepayers. I hope that business model dies in a fire. Instead the entire paradigm of centralized generation may need to be called into question and we should instead be focusing on a hybrid centralized baseline + local generation and storage. Places like China do fine…

Post by Gibbon1 » Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 6:07 AM UTC

Leherenn wrote: post #90

Gibbon1 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike the economist I know something about accounting. If there is excess power at zero marginal cost someone cunning is already planning on making some coin off it. As it is utilities with excess solar and wind are rapidly adding battery storage. I think there are three stages of renewable development. The first stage renewables partly offset traditional suppliers. The second stage is you actually have excess part…

> If there is excess power at zero marginal cost someone cunning is already planning on making some coin off it. I'm not sure it's that simple as evidenced by the ever increasing hours of negative electricity prices. As far as I know, there are so far no good applications for short bursts of negative prices. Everything that would love those is so capital intensive/high fix costs that even 10 or 20% utilisation rates…