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Carl Sagan Predicts the Decline of America (1995)

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Re: Carl Sagan Predicts the Decline of America (1995)

#101
post #70
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bernie said it best. Get money out of politics. Full stop.

That's a vague slogan, not a meaningful strategy to accomplish anything of consequence. Money is just a tool. The resources and incentives that the money is being spent on already exist, and it's being used to further ambitions and goals that were always present. Getting "money out of politics" in a formalistic way will just lead to corrupt ambitions being facilitated via some other means. Bernie's ideas are very dan…

[deleted]

Re: Carl Sagan Predicts the Decline of America (1995)

#102

I think the only people denying the decline of the US are the same people that think the US can be as powerful and respected as it was in the 50s, i.e. not the most well informed crowd. It really is crazy to see the way the US is going. I remember reading every time in history an emerging superpower was replacing a declining power, the declining power got antsy and shot first, leading to them getting whooped by the e…

We fought a literal civil war and bounced back. We've had multiple presidents assassinated but still had continuity of power. I doubt the U.S. is going anywhere anytime soon except maybe down a couple slots on the world's largest economies lists, and that's soley due to population growth. Some of us who are optimistic believe that the uniqueness of the U.S. lies in its favorable environment for innovation (e.g. YC),…

How do you invent your way out of authoritarian leadership and a sizeable chunk of the population cheering that on? And there's more dystopian sci-fi than there is hopeful sci-fi.

This is not a technical problem; it's a societal/social one.

Re: Carl Sagan Predicts the Decline of America (1995)

#103

the Chinese have been saying, 'The East is rising and the West is declining,' but China's current economy is on the decline, and Europe is no better. That leaves the U.S. still standing with economic growth. I guess we'll see.

The claim that the US has "economic growth" and that China does not is a strong claim, and does not seem to be supported by any real-world facts. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/jan/17/china-econo...

the China 5% growth in the article...is it believable? the real world fact that you cited come from China. which stop reporting youth unemployment when the numbers is bad back in 2023. only to restart reporting the number with new method.

Can you trust Chinese's numbers when its real estates, foreign investment drop, deflation...etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JYWFUI5kEc

https://apnews.com/article/china-youth-unemployment-slowdown...

Re: Carl Sagan Predicts the Decline of America (1995)

#104
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bernie said it best. Get money out of politics. Full stop.

Honestly, I don’t see how that is compatible with a capitalist society. Money is power and politics is the exercise of power.

"Capitalist society" can have many different meanings. Pure 100% capitalism does not exist and has never existed, and no serious capitalist thinker has ever argued for it.

Re: Carl Sagan Predicts the Decline of America (1995)

#105

I think the only people denying the decline of the US are the same people that think the US can be as powerful and respected as it was in the 50s, i.e. not the most well informed crowd. It really is crazy to see the way the US is going. I remember reading every time in history an emerging superpower was replacing a declining power, the declining power got antsy and shot first, leading to them getting whooped by the e…

We fought a literal civil war and bounced back. We've had multiple presidents assassinated but still had continuity of power. I doubt the U.S. is going anywhere anytime soon except maybe down a couple slots on the world's largest economies lists, and that's soley due to population growth. Some of us who are optimistic believe that the uniqueness of the U.S. lies in its favorable environment for innovation (e.g. YC),…

> We've had multiple presidents assassinated but still had continuity of power.

Sure, with the peaceful transfer being recently violated for the first, but probably not the last time. The literacy rate in the US continues to decline, and the US keep losing respect on the world stage which is only going to get much worse over the next 4 years.

> Some of us who are optimistic believe that the uniqueness of the U.S. lies in its favorable environment for innovation (e.g. YC),

The US doesn't have an especially favorable environment for innovation than other first world countries, arguably it has less given the lack of regulation.

Re: Carl Sagan Predicts the Decline of America (1995)

#106
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We fought a literal civil war and bounced back. We've had multiple presidents assassinated but still had continuity of power. I doubt the U.S. is going anywhere anytime soon except maybe down a couple slots on the world's largest economies lists, and that's soley due to population growth. Some of us who are optimistic believe that the uniqueness of the U.S. lies in its favorable environment for innovation (e.g. YC),…

How do you invent your way out of authoritarian leadership and a sizeable chunk of the population cheering that on? And there's more dystopian sci-fi than there is hopeful sci-fi. This is not a technical problem; it's a societal/social one.

> How do you invent your way out of authoritarian leadership and a sizeable chunk of the population cheering that on?

Without mandatory reeducation I don't think it's a solvable problem.

Re: Carl Sagan Predicts the Decline of America (1995)

#107
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is regulation.

Regulation doesn't work. It's usually co-opted by the very parties it's intended to regulate, and used as a means to entrench rather than limit their power. In the worst case, it actually makes things far worse by allowing established interests to manipulate regulation to create barriers to entry for competition, produce collusive outcomes that would otherwise be illegal, and replace common-law liability for the actu…

Regulation works fine - you can observe it working fine in every other first world country directly mitigating and resolving many of the problems still present in the US.

Re: Carl Sagan Predicts the Decline of America (1995)

#108

I think the only people denying the decline of the US are the same people that think the US can be as powerful and respected as it was in the 50s, i.e. not the most well informed crowd. It really is crazy to see the way the US is going. I remember reading every time in history an emerging superpower was replacing a declining power, the declining power got antsy and shot first, leading to them getting whooped by the e…

> I think the only people denying the decline of the US are the same people that think the US can be as powerful and respected as it was in the 50s, i.e. not the most well informed crowd.

Aye. It's illogical to call to "Make America Great *Again*" while also claiming there's no decline. Logic isn't how politics works, so that doesn't stop it.

Re: Carl Sagan Predicts the Decline of America (1995)

#109
post #70
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bernie said it best. Get money out of politics. Full stop.

That's a vague slogan, not a meaningful strategy to accomplish anything of consequence. Money is just a tool. The resources and incentives that the money is being spent on already exist, and it's being used to further ambitions and goals that were always present. Getting "money out of politics" in a formalistic way will just lead to corrupt ambitions being facilitated via some other means. Bernie's ideas are very dan…

>That's a vague slogan, not a meaningful strategy to accomplish anything of consequence.

Of course. The vast majority of America needs "sound bites" of info. Wish this wasn't the case. But it's worked for decades.

>Money is just a tool. The resources and incentives that the money is being spent on already exist, and it's being used to further ambitions and goals that were always present. Getting "money out of politics" in a formalistic way will just lead to corrupt ambitions being facilitated via some other means.

You're not wrong. But there is a happy medium. Super PACs/Citizens United....this is what he's targeting. Those are dangerous. They are not in the interest of all American people. They benefit the few.

And we cannot have hypocrites at every level. The insider trading that occurs due to politician privilege is insane. But not Bernie, his actions match his words. He lives by his principles. That cannot be said for many politicians.

>Bernie's ideas are very dangerous, because he offers simplistic, pat solutions to risks that are fundamental to politics itself (at the expense of the much more nuanced safeguards we've developed over the ages)

Is that's how things have played our for the folks in Vermont? I grew up in that area. I've watched his policies shape the landscape for decades. But his policies aren't why he's a great candidate.

While his policies are a big part of his platform, what really resonates with a lot of people is his unwavering commitment to first principles values like fairness, equality, social justice, and democracy. These principles drive his entire political career, and they shape his policy proposals, but they also make him stand out in a political landscape where many politicians change their stance based on what's politically expedient or donor-friendly.

Bernie's character and consistency are arguably just as important as his policies in defining who he is as a politician.

>while proposing to make the political state far more central to people's immediate lives and livelihoods than it has ever been before.

This is a concern of mine as well. It's the ultimate balancing act. Provide just enough support for folks that they still hold agency in their life. As Fred Rogers put it, "There's a world of difference between insisting on someone's doing something and establishing an atmosphere in which that person can grow into wanting to do it."

Re: Carl Sagan Predicts the Decline of America (1995)

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A swift google suggests that your assertion that China's economy is "on the decline" to any great extent is quite false. As they say, citation needed. And, well put this way: the management in China seems to be more grown-up and stable, which is better for long-term prospects.

> China's economy is "on the decline" to any great extent is quite false https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crr54x00857o https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/09/20/chinese-econ... https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/china-deflation/ https://www.aei.org/economics/chinas-economy-is-in-deep-trou... https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/06/03/xi-china-economic-decli... https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/14/business/chinas-gdp-q…

First article: "China's economy expanded in the third quarter at the slowest pace", second article, "Growth in the world’s second-largest economy is slowing "

"growing slowly" != "declining"

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