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Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

swift.org

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Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#101

Post by moooo99 »

codr7 wrote: post #94
kelnos wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels similar to C# and Microsoft's other CLR/.NET languages. Sure, they've broken away a bit and aren't exclusively used to run things on MS platforms, but still. And Swift is even more tied to Apple, at least to my inexperienced eye. I'm not really an Apple person (Linux, Android), even though I once really enjoyed their hardware... Swift is so far down on my list of languages to look at that I probably will n…

Sorry to hear that, I wouldn't bet anything on Apple but the core language contains a lot of good ideas imho.

I’ve spent some time looking into swift as well and was quite pleased with the overall language, it really contained some really good ideas. This makes it a bit of a shame that it is tied so closely to Apple

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#102

Post by meindnoch »

talldayo wrote: post #99
uhura wrote: post #36

I believe that this long game of Swift being "good for everything" but "better for Apple platforms" will be detrimental to the language. This does not help the language nor seems to bring more people to the ecosystem. Competitors seems to have a combination of: - Being more open-source - Have more contributors - Have a narrower scope Maybe they should consider open sourcing all the tooling (like Xcode) otherwise the…

Frankly, it makes me feel bad for Chris Lattner. This guy's been worked his ass off to create a genuinely new language with all the bells and whistles he can fit, and his employer is the one that held him back the most. It took years for Foundation framework to get serious multiplatform commitment, and unless something changes drastically I think that's going to be the sour taste that developers have in their mouths.…

Lattner hasn't been working at Apple since 2017.

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#103

Post by alain_gilbert »

kergonath wrote: post #84
robotresearcher wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed the error report being complained about explains this and tells you how to fix it. Maybe the friendly default would be to have the symbolicated reports on, but perhaps this has performance impact so it’s off.

> Maybe the friendly default would be to have the symbolicated reports on As a comment just below says, the solution is quite simple: > ensure you have llvm-symbolizer in your PATH or set the environment var `LLVM_SYMBOLIZER_PATH` to point to it

Here is the output with the environment variable set.

https://pastebin.com/8M9Dbrgj

This doesn't provide anything useful either.

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#104

Post by mrclears »

tux3 wrote: post #4

The goal for Swift should (and seems) to be to gradually separate itself from XCode, which is holding it back from its ambitions. XCode has been compared to many things, but at 3.1 stars on the App store, one must find that it is still slightly overrated.

Using XCode is... unfortunate. Used it for only 10 minutes today and had a crash. Performance was very bad.

(Here's a bad one: I accidentally copied a whole file into the Find and Replace box. Instant Freeze and 1 frame per minute response.)

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#105

Post by cosmic_cheese »

sgt wrote: post #88
elforce002 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi Tim. I liked your work with dart/flutter. Are you guys working on overhauling Xcode? The DX is atrocious.

Did something happen with Xcode? I used it around 5 years ago, and it was pretty good and fast. I don't think it had dark mode but that's not too important to me.

Xcode is fine as long as you skip Interface Builder and make a point to keep your SwiftUI views lightweight. For the latter my rule of thumb is to try to cap nesting in any given view at 3 levels and to break code out into new components for anything deeper, which is a good practice since readability starts declining steeply past 2-3 levels deep anyway.

It doesn’t have all the whizbang features of Jetbrains IDEs, but my experience is that those sorts of features only work correctly sometimes and can be as much of a hindrance as they are a help.

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#106

Post by nwienert »

codr7 wrote: post #94
kelnos wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels similar to C# and Microsoft's other CLR/.NET languages. Sure, they've broken away a bit and aren't exclusively used to run things on MS platforms, but still. And Swift is even more tied to Apple, at least to my inexperienced eye. I'm not really an Apple person (Linux, Android), even though I once really enjoyed their hardware... Swift is so far down on my list of languages to look at that I probably will n…

Sorry to hear that, I wouldn't bet anything on Apple but the core language contains a lot of good ideas imho.

Seems lovely but headed in a Scala-like bloated direction. The "too complex" type issues were really bad last I tried.

And one of my biggest gripes is the way you can extend things from anywhere else, easy to cause a mess.

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#107

Post by philistine »

kelnos wrote: post #82
JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been my experience for a long time. Swift is nice but why would I waste my time working on a language that is too tied to the Apple platform even if it's open-source when we have more universal scripting languages like Python, or languages like Kotlin that are compiled but have more support (because I trust JetBrains way more than Apple at the moment), or languages that are most strict like Rust but have mor…

> Either they are the best and everyone uses macOS "Best" obviously means different things to different people, but at least by market share, macOS has never been the best. Modern Apple doesn't seem to care about market share outside of the iPhone (and even then, they are still more interested in the iPhone being a premium product than winning on market share). I used to like macOS, 15-20 years ago, but now it's just…

> but now it's just power-user-hostile and considerably more locked down and buggy.

Sure, macOS has continued to secure more and more elements of the OS. They have taken a different approach than Windows and Linux, which both keep large swaths of the OS woefully insecure from third-party apps for legacy reasons. But for each and every new lock, there is a key. An incredibly secure OS that gives you the power to control what third-party apps access on your computer is the best power-user feature.

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#108

Post by virgil_disgr4ce »

kelnos wrote: post #82
JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been my experience for a long time. Swift is nice but why would I waste my time working on a language that is too tied to the Apple platform even if it's open-source when we have more universal scripting languages like Python, or languages like Kotlin that are compiled but have more support (because I trust JetBrains way more than Apple at the moment), or languages that are most strict like Rust but have mor…

> Either they are the best and everyone uses macOS "Best" obviously means different things to different people, but at least by market share, macOS has never been the best. Modern Apple doesn't seem to care about market share outside of the iPhone (and even then, they are still more interested in the iPhone being a premium product than winning on market share). I used to like macOS, 15-20 years ago, but now it's just…

> now it's just power-user-hostile and considerably more locked down and buggy

Hm, I've been using macOS (alongside others) for the past 20 years straight. In what ways is it hostile and buggy?

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#109

Post by virgil_disgr4ce »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #42
uhura wrote: post #36

I believe that this long game of Swift being "good for everything" but "better for Apple platforms" will be detrimental to the language. This does not help the language nor seems to bring more people to the ecosystem. Competitors seems to have a combination of: - Being more open-source - Have more contributors - Have a narrower scope Maybe they should consider open sourcing all the tooling (like Xcode) otherwise the…

I doubt Apple really cares much about competing with other languages, tooling, or platforms when it comes to Swift or Xcode. They have a completely captured audience and ecosystem, and anything beyond that isn’t even a "best effort" — it's more like, "You're welcome to see if it works for you, but don’t bother us if it doesn't."

> anything beyond that isn’t even a "best effort"

Ehhh, I don't know, whoever's designing and implementing Swift and Xcode etc clearly genuinely care on a personal level about quality. I get that there's going to be taste involved but the amount of thought and effort that's gone into the ecosystem is very high.

Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build

#110

Post by caspper69 »

raydev wrote: post #86
krupan wrote: post #56

The discussion here reminds me so much of early C# days. It was being touted as open source and cross platform back then, and Microsoft even hired a top GNOME developer to port it to Linux and GNOME was going to be rewritten in C#. It was going to be amazing. Never quite panned out.

> Microsoft even hired a top GNOME developer to port it to Linux and GNOME was going to be rewritten in C# Do you have a source for the GNOME C# claim? I can't find one.

Miguel was not a MS employee. He did parlay Xamarin into an acqui-hire though and is now a softie.
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