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Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#101

Post by sillyfluke »

inglor_cz wrote: post #35
poulpy123 wrote: post #22

I don't care either way since I'm not concerned but I can shake how bizarre and grotesque the switch to and from DEI were. The very recent example of Zuckerberg going full "masculine energy has been neutered by feminine energy" like he is some kind of Andrew Tate influencer is quite unbelievable for the CEO of a 600 billion dollars company

It was a gesture for preening on the social networks, and now that the winds have changed, they will be trying to buy attention and approval on social networks through something else. It is also a good indication that DEI doesn't really make money . If DEI was improving the bottom line measurably, as its proponents promise, capitalists would be loath to scrap it entirely. Possibly they would change the name of the pr…

>If DEI was improving the bottom line measurably, as its proponents promise, capitalists would be loath to scrap it entirely.

This may be true, but if you are going to construct such a sentence you might want to address the fact that the title of this thread is stating that one of the biggest capitalist companies in the world is trying to do just that. The elephant in the room and all that.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#102

Post by franktankbank »

eesmith wrote: post #99
franktankbank wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of discrimination isn't covered by motives of nepotism or DEI? To be clear I think its not necessarily bad, its the dose. The Cosmonaut had proven genetics, that counts for something on top of meritocracy.

Do you consider slavery, the Trail of Tears, the internment of Japanese-Americans, and the restrictions on women from serving in combat or some juries as discrimination? In many states, it is okay to discriminate based on political views. Here's an example of a socialist working at Goodwill who was fired for being a socialist - https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2002/07/can-your-boss-fi... with the quote: “The law i…

Feel like we are talking past each other honestly. I don't think its worthwhile to label something discrimination without a clear motive behind it.

Nepotism == My tribe > other tribe

DEI == Diversity > mono-culture

Meritocracy == job skills > political skills

Note there is no prescribed method how you balance those forces for "peak results" because there is no generic "peak result". Maybe I should have stated Meritocracy is also a form of discrimination but one where its "common-sense" standard. Restrictions on foreign influence in war time would be meritocracy and nepotism at the expense of DEI for example. Can you see any use in the above definitions or would you add another point to the tension graph? Or is there no use in considering these in tension with one another?

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#103

Post by eesmith »

franktankbank wrote: post #102
eesmith wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you consider slavery, the Trail of Tears, the internment of Japanese-Americans, and the restrictions on women from serving in combat or some juries as discrimination? In many states, it is okay to discriminate based on political views. Here's an example of a socialist working at Goodwill who was fired for being a socialist - https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2002/07/can-your-boss-fi... with the quote: “The law i…

Feel like we are talking past each other honestly. I don't think its worthwhile to label something discrimination without a clear motive behind it. Nepotism == My tribe > other tribe DEI == Diversity > mono-culture Meritocracy == job skills > political skills Note there is no prescribed method how you balance those forces for "peak results" because there is no generic "peak result". Maybe I should have stated Meritoc…

These are far from the actual definitions of those words, to the point were I have trouble making sense of it.

Like, the history of racism in the Americas recognizes a lot of different cultures, and even puts a hierarchy to them, typically with Blacks and Native Americans at the bottom, along with terms like mestizo and quadroon to describe different combinations of intermixing. A lighter-skinned Black slave is more likely to work in the house, while a darker-skinned one works the fields. A "swarthy" Italian might be white according to the law, but of lower social standing than other whites.

Let's suppose I had a mestiza mistress, a mulatto manservant, a dozen black fieldworkers, and a Chinese wash woman, and a white wife, all under a white supremacist patriarchy.

Sounds pretty diverse, yes? It certainly is not mono-culture. Does that diversity make it part of DEI?

While if we use the definition at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity,_equity,_and_inclusi...

"Diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) are organizational frameworks which seek to promote the fair treatment and full participation of all people, particularly groups who have historically been underrepresented or subject to discrimination on the basis of identity or disability."

we can see that the mistress, wife, etc. are not able to engage in full participation like I am.

I therefore conclude that DEI is not simply the idea that 'diversity > mono-culture'.

Is there any definition you would use for "my tribe == other tribe"?

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#104

Post by tomlockwood »

poulpy123 wrote: post #28
tomlockwood wrote: post #2

I don't quite understand what the conservatives think DEI actually is, because as far as I can tell three women being in leadership positions in the LA fire department is "DEI". It just seems like the new "woke" or "political correctness", and just as vague.

DEI is focusing on the identity of the person instead of the abilities/programs/skills/work related arguments. When the LAFD communicates that the LGBT status of the 3 heads of the department they signals it's the reason they got hired to this position. if you add absurd communication like saying it's better to be rescued by someone that looks like you or that the first thing you'll say to someone you want to rescue…

Huh? Aren't you focussing on the identity of the people?

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#105

Post by tomlockwood »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #41
tomlockwood wrote: post #2

I don't quite understand what the conservatives think DEI actually is, because as far as I can tell three women being in leadership positions in the LA fire department is "DEI". It just seems like the new "woke" or "political correctness", and just as vague.

It's whatever each company makes of it, which is why definitions vary. It can range from explicit efforts to actively reach out to candidates from schools with students predominantly from historically-disadvantaged groups, to outright "no hiring of white men this quarter" (which is one of the more egregious documented cases, https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/2/17070624/google-youtube-wi... ). What I think most conserva…

So on the one hand "it varies" and to conservatives it means one very specific thing. Interesting. Which is correct?

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#106

Post by eesmith »

franktankbank wrote: post #102
eesmith wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you consider slavery, the Trail of Tears, the internment of Japanese-Americans, and the restrictions on women from serving in combat or some juries as discrimination? In many states, it is okay to discriminate based on political views. Here's an example of a socialist working at Goodwill who was fired for being a socialist - https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2002/07/can-your-boss-fi... with the quote: “The law i…

Feel like we are talking past each other honestly. I don't think its worthwhile to label something discrimination without a clear motive behind it. Nepotism == My tribe > other tribe DEI == Diversity > mono-culture Meritocracy == job skills > political skills Note there is no prescribed method how you balance those forces for "peak results" because there is no generic "peak result". Maybe I should have stated Meritoc…

You asked "What kind of discrimination isn't covered by motives of nepotism or DEI?"

One of my examples was how women couldn't be in combat roles until recently.

Is that 'Nepotism'? No, not unless you have a very strange definition of "tribe" such that men and women are in different tribes.

Is that 'DEI'? No, not unless you have a very strange definition of culture such that men and women are in different cultures.

In both of those strange definitions, where do you stop? How does the tribe of "American" overlap with the tribe of "woman" overlap with the tribe of "State U. graduate" overlap with the culture of "Southern" overlap with the culture of "menopausal" overlap with the culture of "home owner", and so on.

And to be clear, discrimination is not always bad. We have bona fide occupational qualifications, like how a church can discriminate on the basis of religion, and a strip club is not required to accept male strippers. We have age restrictions, like how the president must be at least 35 years old. We can fire people with excessively foul body order, even if they have the right job skills.

So when you ask "What kind of discrimination isn't covered by motives of nepotism or DEI?", the range is quite large.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#107

Post by mschuster91 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #91
mschuster91 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Existence of some counterexamples does not upend the basic observation: that way, way fewer women are capable of carrying a 100 or even a 60 kg person out of a fire than men. My point is the need for this ability is next to zero because it is extremely dangerous, and yet women are judged by that on their inability to be a firefighter at all ? That's bullshit, pardon my French. > The vast majority of the really dang…

My point is the need for this ability is next to zero because it is extremely dangerous That is an absolute non-sequitur. Yes, it is dangerous to carry a person out of a fire. But it is still an expected, though infrequent occurrence during duties of a firefighter. By deliberately striking this capability from list of demands, you are also deliberately restricting the total life-saving capabilities of the firefightin…

> On the other hand, I couldn't care less about diversity checkboxes. The idea that a firefighting corps is better for having more women is as weird to me as the idea that a firefighting corps is better for having more Taylor Swift fans.

Fact is, volunteer corps are already struggling with obtaining and retaining volunteers. Excluding women excludes 50% of the potential force.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#108

Post by defrost »

zo1 wrote: post #75
defrost wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you can't explain why its predictable that lesbians --> failure.

Not OP, but that point has nothing to do with them being lesbians or females. That label distracts from the actual criticism and bias that sadly played a part. It could just as well have been "obese native americans with amputations" or "foreign born white dudes with Crohn's disease" or "pansexual blue-haired dance majors" or "three sons of Mayor Dalton that approves the fire department's budget". If that property ti…

The point made by pavlov is very real.

> The alternative is just a really really unlikely coincidence.

is untrue.

In my real world experience of several decade, in multiple countries, (AU, UK, US at the very least) it is commonplace for comany boards and public service departments to have multiple members with common traits, be that schools, debate clubs, sexual orientation, vacation habits, former employers, etc.

The networking effects that draw birds of feather together are clearly apparent once you actively look for them. Having several lesbians in senior management of a large organisation isn't particularly noteworthy and it doesn't follow that they would be bad at their job simply because they are lesbians.

YCombinator is littered with examples of socially incestuous startups ..

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#109

Post by maxerickson »

slt2021 wrote: post #89
maxerickson wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm making a claim that a sloppy argument was made. You are focusing on factors that you consider obvious, which is exactly my point, using your subjective judgement doesn't give you a framework that isn't subjective.

You have constructed and debating a strawman. Everything involving human judgement will be subjective, yet we still can distinguish between good and bad decisions and discuss tradeoffs about being less wrong while being subjective

I don't think it's a straw man. No one has actually solved hiring, "best" isn't defined.

Like people are freaking out about any sort of DEI factor even getting considered and then actually hiring based on how Phil vibes with the candidate. Good stuff.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#110

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

poulpy123 wrote: post #22

I don't care either way since I'm not concerned but I can shake how bizarre and grotesque the switch to and from DEI were. The very recent example of Zuckerberg going full "masculine energy has been neutered by feminine energy" like he is some kind of Andrew Tate influencer is quite unbelievable for the CEO of a 600 billion dollars company

"... is quite unbelievable for the CEO of a 600 billion dollar company"

He holds the NYSE record for largest single day loss in share price, 230 billion

https://www.investopedia.com/investing/biggest-singleday-mar...

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