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Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

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Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#101

Post by mistrial9 »

NemoNobody wrote: post #84
aziaziazi wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im going to cite (slightly shorten) Wikipedia. I have no competency to understand the sources and fact check but I though it’s quite interesting. > In the 2nd century the Ophites reportedly handled snakes during their services, and also worshipped the serpent. > The Ophites […] were a Christian Gnostic sect. > Gnosticism […] is a collection of religious ideas and systems that coalesced in the late 1st century AD amon…

Gnosticism is a bit of a catchall - the Ophites were a sect or branch and not by any means the standard - it's difficult to say there is an established "Standard Gnostic Theology" as there really isn't, there are some common deviations from modern Christianity that rendered them more similar thru a modern lens than they may be, tho they are some common Gnostic themes, like self awareness but snake charming isn't one.…

yes agree and .. there are branches of Christianity across the world that did not lose the connection to warfare. There are plenty of people who fight fiercely (in real life) that espouse Christ deeply.. a current Japan martial arts cage fighting champion from Brazil dedicated his whole victory speech to Christ recently, for example.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#102

Post by throw0101b »

papandada wrote: post #66
wolfhelius wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a long drive where I listened to The Great Courses, which had a set on early Christianity. I think the professor was from Notre Dame. The early church was wrestling with polytheism (is the OT god seemed really different from the NT god) and it eventually had to get resolved by the Council at Nicaea at Constantine's behest.

I've never heard anyone say the early church wrestled with polytheism. Maybe that's my bias nestled in Christian circles of not using that word, in favour of something more like "the nature of the triune Godhead", etc.

> I've never heard anyone say the early church wrestled with polytheism.

See:

> Marcion preached that the benevolent God of the Gospel who sent Jesus Christ into the world as the savior was the true Supreme Being, different and opposed to the malevolent Demiurge or creator god, identified with the Hebrew God of the Old Testament.[2][3][5]

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#103

Post by JackFr »

kibwen wrote: post #86
papandada wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard anyone say the early church wrestled with polytheism. Maybe that's my bias nestled in Christian circles of not using that word, in favour of something more like "the nature of the triune Godhead", etc.

Even today plenty of Christian sects refuse to recognize the council of Nicaea's interpretation of the trinity, including the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism (Whether or not any of these flirt with polytheism is up for debate.) Meanwhile, the Catholic church's own profusion of saints whom you are supposed to beseech for specific blessings is dangerously close to a…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque - to this day the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church disagree on whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, or from the Father and the Son.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#104

Post by Decabytes »

It's super cool to see the digital unraveling of scrolls become more accessible. It's also amazing that we can still read the text of something that is nearly 2000 years old.

One thing I don't understand is the picture of the scroll though. I don't see how they were able to figure out the letters? They don't look like an alphabet to me

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#105

Post by giraffe_lady »

kibwen wrote: post #86
papandada wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard anyone say the early church wrestled with polytheism. Maybe that's my bias nestled in Christian circles of not using that word, in favour of something more like "the nature of the triune Godhead", etc.

Even today plenty of Christian sects refuse to recognize the council of Nicaea's interpretation of the trinity, including the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism (Whether or not any of these flirt with polytheism is up for debate.) Meanwhile, the Catholic church's own profusion of saints whom you are supposed to beseech for specific blessings is dangerously close to a…

In a taxonomy of religious belief the communion of saints is much closer to ancestor veneration than it is polytheism. If you're going to see anything in christianity as potentially polytheistic it's the triune god come on.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#106

Post by [deleted] »

kibwen wrote: post #86
papandada wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard anyone say the early church wrestled with polytheism. Maybe that's my bias nestled in Christian circles of not using that word, in favour of something more like "the nature of the triune Godhead", etc.

Even today plenty of Christian sects refuse to recognize the council of Nicaea's interpretation of the trinity, including the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism (Whether or not any of these flirt with polytheism is up for debate.) Meanwhile, the Catholic church's own profusion of saints whom you are supposed to beseech for specific blessings is dangerously close to a…

[deleted]

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#107

Post by JackFr »

3pt14159 wrote: post #94
kibwen wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even today plenty of Christian sects refuse to recognize the council of Nicaea's interpretation of the trinity, including the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism (Whether or not any of these flirt with polytheism is up for debate.) Meanwhile, the Catholic church's own profusion of saints whom you are supposed to beseech for specific blessings is dangerously close to a…

> is dangerously close to a polytheistic practice in its own right. I don't really think so. We're supposed to pray with Mary to God and everyone recognizes that all of creation came through Christ, not Mary or any other saint.

As Mary asked Jesus to perform the miracle at the wedding at Cana, for the said of her friend, we too are called to pray to ask Mary to intercede for us for our intentions.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#108

Post by noworriesnate »

throaway2501 wrote: post #87
noworriesnate wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are they claiming that Messianic Jews are not actually Jews? Because they implied that people were falsely taking the title Jew if I understood them correctly. That would be the first time I've ever heard that particular assertion.

Israel doesn’t allow Messianic Jews to be citizens for this reason.

So I'm confused--are you saying that Israel thinks Messianic Jews are not Jews because they abandoned their faith or something like that, OR are you saying that Israel doesn't let Messianic Jews to be citizens because sometimes non-Jews convert to become Messianic Jews?

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#109

Post by joshdata »

markovs_gun wrote: post #95
noworriesnate wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What denominations do that? I'm familiar with Hebrew Roots, but doesn't seem to be what you're describing.

There are essentially two completely different movements claiming the name of "Messianic Judaism." The first are people who are Jewish- culturally, ethnically, and even religiously, who have converted to Christianity and believe that all other Jews should do the same. There is a small pocket of Messianic Jews of this definition in my hometown, so this is the version I was most familiar with. It wasn't until later tha…

I agree that ethnic Jews with Christian religious beliefs is a legitimate concept. But I would rather call them Messianic Jews (or just Christian Jews) rather than adherents of "Messianic Judaism." To say that "Judaism" can include Jesus erases the Jewish religion by leaving it without a name, conveniently benefiting the dominant Christian religion. (And Messianic Jews who are not Jews should be called something else entirely.)

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#110

Post by kibwen »

3pt14159 wrote: post #94
kibwen wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even today plenty of Christian sects refuse to recognize the council of Nicaea's interpretation of the trinity, including the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism (Whether or not any of these flirt with polytheism is up for debate.) Meanwhile, the Catholic church's own profusion of saints whom you are supposed to beseech for specific blessings is dangerously close to a…

> is dangerously close to a polytheistic practice in its own right. I don't really think so. We're supposed to pray with Mary to God and everyone recognizes that all of creation came through Christ, not Mary or any other saint.

Indeed, I'm not trying to argue that the tradition of Catholic saints doesn't obey an absolute hierarchy. I'm referring to practices that are specific to the domains of various patron saints, such as placing medals of Saint Christopher in your car for protection (him being the patron saint of transporters and travelers, as well as athletics, bachelors, surfing, storms, epilepsy, gardeners, and toothache). One of the reasons that Protestants objected to saintly veneration was precisely because they felt it took focus away from Jesus.
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