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Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

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Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#101

Post by dsign »

tcfhgj wrote: post #58
dsign wrote: post #54

In Sweden, I've been in contact with several companies and associations which are raising small solar farms and selling stocks on them (so, there is a primary market for stocks on renewables). Investment is affordable and transparent and it feels "grass-roots democratic". The problem with solar farms is that this time of the year, they don't produce power. The only green alternative that would produce power is nuclea…

What about wind power which is strong in winter? What about energy storage systems, e.g. using green gas? There seem to be more green options than nuclear power.

I don't know about wind-power stocks, worth taking a look.

About energy storage systems, they fall into "risk investment", i.e., something that venture funds would go for. There is risk capital in Sweden but it is a boutique thing: small amounts, hard to find. The average Sven who can invest wants to invest in something safer. Since the government takes the majority of wage-earners' income in taxes[^1], and thus there is not much disposable income, it's up to the government to step in and finance big and even medium-sized infrastructure, and the same applies to risk profiles.

[1]: 63 cents (öre) on every kronor above the amount equivalent to approx 5000 USD/month that an employer would set apart for wages, including self-wages for self-employed people.

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#102

Post by ivan_gammel »

sigh_again wrote: post #96
ivan_gammel wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're incredibly defensive when all I have done is point out that saying "the greens aren't responsible for it" is a blatant lie And I didn’t say that. Who is defensive? > Aside from the fact that they have been on the offensive not just in 2024, but for close to a decade now (the Fessenheim closure has been demanded since 2016, green taxonomy started in 2020) 2016-2020 - Merkel government. Overall most of what yo…

> does it make sense to commit to fossil fuel for another 50-70 years again? I now see that you have been arguing in bad faith since the beginning and should not have wasted time, down to repeating exact arguments from the greens that have, so far, proved to be wronged and dragged Germany into one of the worst emitters of Europe. Good luck with your dreams, knowing you're dragging all of us down with you.

I understand that somehow Greens made you feel so angry that you cannot stand any argument with other opinion than yours, but this is HN, not therapy, we are not here to release your steam. Try to make it less emotional next time.

I‘m not acting in bad faith, I just don’t see how is your argumentation relevant to my original comment above. What I would expect to agree with you is the causal link making greens primarily responsible for current situation. As I pointed out, I do not see it simply because other parties were long enough in the government not only to undo things, but to build something on their own.

And I honestly, being relatively familiar with the topics, cannot see how nuclear power industry could save us if it were restarted couple years ago. The reports from German research teams show otherwise. If you have more data on viability of this approach, please feel free to share.

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#103

Post by matsemann »

willvarfar wrote: post #43
matsemann wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds exactly like Norway. In a sense I don't mind us making billions of selling our electricity to the rest of Europe. Problem is how it's increased prices domestically as well. So government makes billions, people suffer. Most people thus wants to "cut the cables" overseas, but I think a better arrangement would be to share the profits. Which we currently mostly do for homes, by having a subsidized max price, but…

(In Norway is it the government making the money or private energy companies? Where do the profits really go?)

Don't have any numbers, but my impression is that most is owned by municipalities or the government.

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#104

Post by sigh_again »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #102
sigh_again wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does it make sense to commit to fossil fuel for another 50-70 years again? I now see that you have been arguing in bad faith since the beginning and should not have wasted time, down to repeating exact arguments from the greens that have, so far, proved to be wronged and dragged Germany into one of the worst emitters of Europe. Good luck with your dreams, knowing you're dragging all of us down with you.

I understand that somehow Greens made you feel so angry that you cannot stand any argument with other opinion than yours, but this is HN, not therapy, we are not here to release your steam. Try to make it less emotional next time. I‘m not acting in bad faith, I just don’t see how is your argumentation relevant to my original comment above. What I would expect to agree with you is the causal link making greens primari…

[flagged]

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#105

Post by guerrilla »

mantas wrote: post #100
guerrilla wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it was really forced by labor unions, tenant unions and other active forms of organization who were at the time very aggressive. People died over it. There were general strikes, sabotage and liter am armed conflict over it. Things would have gotten much worse if the business cartel had not signed the peace accord. That's why they did, because they were forced to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_A…

IMO the trust between swedish government and people started waaay earlier when Sweden ended its imperial ambitions and the royal family focused on inside. Agreements like above are important to labour rights, but it’s little compared to struggles other parts of the world came through. Just like labour rights are little compared to much bigger societal things like attempts to eradicate or assimilate whole ethnicities…

I don't want to be rude but why do you want to have opinions on this without knowing the history very well?

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#106

Post by hagbard_c »

mikl wrote: post #31
Havoc wrote: post #10

Think must people agree it was a mistake but blaming infra country difference on another country seems a bit much

You can say that, but on the power flow maps, it was quite clear. At the same time we were paying ~$1.5 USD for 1 kWh, we were exporting power to Germany (and other energy-unstable countries like Italy). Sure, better energy links inside Sweden could have helped, but part of the reason the price was being bid up so high was the exports to Germany.

It is debatable whether higher-capacity interconnects within Sweden can solve this since Germany and neighbouring countries need so much power that any feasible interconnect will be maxed out. A better solution to the problem is to change the electricity regions so that the areas around international interconnects where demand outstrips the supply get their own zones. This way the price on 'the continent' can be decoupled more from the price within Sweden and the extreme price swings and price discrepancies between the north and the rest of the country will be dampened. Swedish customers living within the new regions can get government support to reduce the impact of export pricing without those supports being needed for the current large zones (III and IV being mostly affected).

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#107

Post by mantas »

guerrilla wrote: post #105
mantas wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the trust between swedish government and people started waaay earlier when Sweden ended its imperial ambitions and the royal family focused on inside. Agreements like above are important to labour rights, but it’s little compared to struggles other parts of the world came through. Just like labour rights are little compared to much bigger societal things like attempts to eradicate or assimilate whole ethnicities…

I don't want to be rude but why do you want to have opinions on this without knowing the history very well?

I'm always up to learn something new that may enrich my opinions.

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#108

Post by tcfhgj »

moepstar wrote: post #87
karmakurtisaani wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The past few days wind has been pretty bad. In the long term I think it will be good as battery storages are rising, but the next few years are still going to be tough.

> The past few days wind has been pretty bad. Except... it was not. Here. And somewhere, the sun is shining. People need to _stop_ thinking energy production is hyperlocal when, in reality, it is not. And never has been. Now, swedes are complaining, germans (i.e. me) are buying energy and raising prices. There will be a time, when they will import energy from us. Just as much as we exported energy to France when half…

> Yes, with batteries. No, hydrogen is not the answer. Batteries it is. Get moving, stop complaining.

what makes you say that?

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#109

Post by tcfhgj »

Xelbair wrote: post #99
tcfhgj wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Miniscule probability of high damage. Everyone, every power,has to decide on their own if one is willing to take this risk. CO2 isn't a problem of renewables. In Germany, the problem with renewables is massively scaling green gas production. Storage exists plenty fairly cheap, even for hydrogen (Underground).

never mentioned CO2 for renewables - i mentioned storing energy from them. that's the problem.

why?

Re: Swedish minister eyes energy crisis steps, blames German nuclear phase-out

#110

Post by alecco »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #33
alecco wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The green coalition governments across the EU are leaving a huge mess behind. De-industrialization at a pace never seen before at peace times. China is happy to fill in the void.

How is China filling a void in local energy production? Exporting energy over those distances isn't viable. I mean granted, China's push to expand their solar panel production has led to affordable solar panels for a lot of home owners and communities, massively boosting solar / renewable energy adoption to the point that local energy grids are at capacity. Likewise, their push to expand production of batteries and c…

> How is China filling a void in local energy production?

China is investing in power generation almost as much as the rest of the world combined. That energy is used by their massive and growing manufacturing industry. Bye bye EU manufacturing like cars.

Note China wasn't even a significant exporter of cars just 10 years ago and now they are becoming dominant.

Germany and the EU dug their grave. It would be hard to undo the damage now.

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