Mistakes as a new manager • Hacker News Board

Re: Mistakes as a new manager

#101

Post by osigurdson » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 4:45 PM UTC

Joel_Mckay wrote: post #91

osigurdson wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Failure to deliver on time means they don't get another dime "On time" can be achieved by over estimating. As a hypothetical, dev A estimates that a project will take a year and completes it in 6 months. Dev B estimates 1 month for the same project and completes it in 3. Companies that focus too much on things being "on time" ultimately get the "nothing is worth doing" corporate culture.

Actually, sometimes it means hiring rank amateurs, and training them to reliably complete tasks like a real business. Understanding the time constraint would be lower for Jr, and thus the equivalent pay scale will be less lucrative... but it is up to individuals to decide their own work ethics. Using PERT deliverable/vertices redundancies is often necessary for projects no one has seen before: https://en.wikipedia.or…

I think the PERT chart is pretty accurate. The issue is typically predicting what all of the nodes on graph will be ends up being a waste of time. Instead, there are really just two points: current state and desired state. It is better to spend time clearly articulating the desired state so that everyone really understands it. Then incentivize people to get there as quickly as possible.

Re: Mistakes as a new manager

#102

Post by ChiMan » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 4:53 PM UTC

The way to see this is that we’re all individual contributors, from the janitor to the CEO. Because if you’re not an individual, then what are you? And if you’re not contributing, then what are you doing there? When you manage a project or team, you’re just individually contributing in a different (though usually overlapping) way.

Also, it’s helpful to remember, when delegating, that one reason you’re probably managing is that you either have tired of running your brain in fifth gear or, at your age, can’t. So the way you contribute is, in general, by applying the hard-won lessons gleaned from your time on the brain-speed freeway while letting others, whose brains naturally run faster, either because of youth or disposition, do the fast-brain work.

Personally, I don’t generally enjoy managing in part because brain speed, which I value, seems to slow further because of the nature of manager or executive work. When I’ve gotten a taste of management and spent time on calls with other managers and executives, I was shocked to discover how slowly (and often haphazardly) they thought through problems that were quite understandable in an instant or two spent alone. They were all very smart people, and yet the managing—or, more likely, the group settings of meetings and calls—seemed to trap their mind, eventually habitually, in a socially constructed box from which they couldn’t escape.

Re: Mistakes as a new manager

#103

Post by mindvirus » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 5:08 PM UTC

It is cynical, but quality over quantity is bad advice if you want to grow your career as a manager. It's a real failure mode. Not being aggressive about growing your headcount will hold you back. Pretty much all managers are evaluated on amount of headcount when it comes to promotions, especially if you're not tied to P&L.

Re: Mistakes as a new manager

#104

Post by sublinear » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 5:10 PM UTC

diatone wrote: post #83

sublinear wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “I’ve noticed quality issues in your code recently that’s resulted in some rollbacks. Can we talk about how we can address that?” This is just about the laziest and least trustworthy language possible to use. Your reports aren't going to know what they don't know and are just going to become paranoid and work slower. The code quality will likely not improve from a conversation prompted this way. This is also a cont…

I’m sure you mean well but reading GP’s post I’m convinced that the laziest and least trustworthy language to use is actually, “you’re sloppy.” Good idea to think in systems and figure out how to lift the quality of the team but it’s okay to give direct feedback. Especially if the feedback is like GP’s in that it kicks off a constructive conversation, which iiuc is exactly what your final sentence there is waxing on…

Ok fair. Some devs do not respond well to advice and consider it just as condescending. Most I've worked with aren't like this though. Yes, we should use our own judgement.

My response is based on my own experiences with management that are incapable of moving the needle on anything, rarely have any constructive input, and ultimately cause their team to either quit or be fired. Then they themselves get pressured to quit.

It's very obvious to devs when someone delegating couldn't even do the work themselves or would do an even sloppier job. It's one thing to expect higher performance, but quite another to demand it while spending all day in meetings giving limp wristed handshakes and bullshitting their way through every question they get from anyone.

I understand that it's already hard enough to hire good devs let alone promote one into management. I'm suggesting how an organization goes about making and promoting those people from within. This industry cannot go on like this. I don't care if someone isn't perfect when I hire them, but I do care that everyone wins.

Re: Mistakes as a new manager

#105

Post by Gunseng » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 5:13 PM UTC

I find it hard to take anything seriously where "imposter syndrom" is mentioned. That said, I think having full time managers at all is a mistake. This was discussed in detail in this podcast: https://37signals.com/podcast/everybody-works/

Re: Mistakes as a new manager

#106

Post by justsomeshmuck » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 5:14 PM UTC

98codes wrote: post #10

otteromkram wrote: post #3

> "Where’s my dopamine?" I'm not in management, but couldn't OP become a working manager? Might depend on the size of their team and demands of the new role, but I've worked with managers who wear their IC hat on occasion and thought it was a positive value-add for the group as a whole.

Every manager I've ever had that couldn't let go of their IC hat also had a pile of manager hat work that wasn't ever getting done.

What sort of manager work was ignored?

Re: Mistakes as a new manager

#107

Post by Joel_Mckay » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 5:24 PM UTC

osigurdson wrote: post #101

Joel_Mckay wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, sometimes it means hiring rank amateurs, and training them to reliably complete tasks like a real business. Understanding the time constraint would be lower for Jr, and thus the equivalent pay scale will be less lucrative... but it is up to individuals to decide their own work ethics. Using PERT deliverable/vertices redundancies is often necessary for projects no one has seen before: https://en.wikipedia.or…

I think the PERT chart is pretty accurate. The issue is typically predicting what all of the nodes on graph will be ends up being a waste of time. Instead, there are really just two points: current state and desired state. It is better to spend time clearly articulating the desired state so that everyone really understands it. Then incentivize people to get there as quickly as possible.

I think our perspectives differ slightly, as I really don't care to micromanage adults that know better. Notably, the fixed cost of development is far less of a concern than long-term deployment, support, and maintenance costs.

Probably a ROWE would be a similar modern equivalent...

Have a nice day, =3

Re: Mistakes as a new manager

#108

Post by blindriver » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 5:45 PM UTC

Another mistake: Thinking your former coworkers are still your friends.

Re: Mistakes as a new manager

#109

Post by YZF » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 6:02 PM UTC

ChiMan wrote: post #102

The way to see this is that we’re all individual contributors, from the janitor to the CEO. Because if you’re not an individual, then what are you? And if you’re not contributing, then what are you doing there? When you manage a project or team, you’re just individually contributing in a different (though usually overlapping) way. Also, it’s helpful to remember, when delegating, that one reason you’re probably managi…

I hate the term IC. Its often used in a semi-derogatory context.

Ah, I was wondering what was going on with my brain since I became a manager.

Seriously though, I've known some people who are managers and extremely fast/strong thinkers. Yes, the nature of the job requires more of the big picture and less of the details.

Re: Mistakes as a new manager

#110

Post by dakiol » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 6:04 PM UTC

piterrro wrote: post #67

sublinear wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “I’ve noticed quality issues in your code recently that’s resulted in some rollbacks. Can we talk about how we can address that?” This is just about the laziest and least trustworthy language possible to use. Your reports aren't going to know what they don't know and are just going to become paranoid and work slower. The code quality will likely not improve from a conversation prompted this way. This is also a cont…

Fully agree, quality is teams's effort and having a blameless culture where the team pushes for higher quality bar is essential. Chasing a single individual only makes sense when they have a track record of repeating the same thing multiple times - means they are not learning from their past mistakes.

Constantly pushing for higher quality is not healthy imo. You end up burned. I don’t want to be a high performer (I end up burned) and I don’t want to be a low performer either (end up fired). Something in between is something ICs shouldn’t be afraid of aiming to (unfortunately management doesn’t think like that and want to extract until the last drop of productivity from us)