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AI poetry is indistinguishable from human poetry and is rated more favorably

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Re: AI poetry is indistinguishable from human poetry and is rated more favorably

#101
post #80
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how the authors are dishonest about it, or that the rebuttal refutes any of the actual claims made. They make it clear in the paper that they're specifically evaluating people who aren't especially interested in poetry, and talk at length about how and why this is different from other approaches. I suppose the clickbait title gives a bad first impression. To summarize the facts: when people were asked to…

> I don't see how the authors are dishonest about it, or that the rebuttal refutes any of the actual claims made. Suppose I prepared a glass of lemonade and purchased a bottle of vintage wine—one held in high regard by connoisseurs. Then I found a set of random bystanders and surveyed them on which drink they preferred, and they generally preferred the lemonade. Do you see how it would be dishonest of me to treat thi…

> Suppose I prepared a glass of lemonade and purchased a bottle of vintage wine—one held in high regard by connoisseurs.

I would tell you that there have been results about the blind testing of wines held in high regard by connoisseurs that might make you not want to choose that for a comparison.

Re: AI poetry is indistinguishable from human poetry and is rated more favorably

#102
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see how the authors are dishonest about it, or that the rebuttal refutes any of the actual claims made. Suppose I prepared a glass of lemonade and purchased a bottle of vintage wine—one held in high regard by connoisseurs. Then I found a set of random bystanders and surveyed them on which drink they preferred, and they generally preferred the lemonade. Do you see how it would be dishonest of me to treat thi…

> Suppose I prepared a glass of lemonade and purchased a bottle of vintage wine—one held in high regard by connoisseurs. I would tell you that there have been results about the blind testing of wines held in high regard by connoisseurs that might make you not want to choose that for a comparison.

[deleted]

Re: AI poetry is indistinguishable from human poetry and is rated more favorably

#103

Could someone link me to a poem that an LLM did that they personally find in some way remarkable or beautiful or moving? Something with a bit of truth and/or beauty in it? Not something that "rhymes" or has a rough poetic structure. I have only seen complete and utter garbage from LLMs in the poetry realm, not just a bit bad, but jarring and unfeeling. Which is fine, I don't hold it against them personally , ya know.…

> Could someone link me to a poem that an LLM did that they personally find in some way remarkable or beautiful or moving? Something with a bit of truth and/or beauty in it?

A lot of people couldn't link you to _any_ poem, human-written or ai generated, in response to that question.

Re: AI poetry is indistinguishable from human poetry and is rated more favorably

#104
post #98

The use of non-experts as judges renders this meaningless. Imagine an algorithm that drew random shapes. Then ask people who've never engaged with art theory or history to compare its output with what they see in a modern art museum. You'd get results similar to this. Many forms of art are actually quite inaccessible to novices. What poets see in poems or composers hears in compositions is nothing like what someone f…

The thing is that, for most of society, art exists to serve a utilitarian purpose (make us feel good/bad/inspired/destroyed/whatever other influence). Essentially just to induce a "vibe". Anything other than what most people intuitively feel after consuming it is secondary and, frankly, unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

Yet Walt Whitman exists...

Re: AI poetry is indistinguishable from human poetry and is rated more favorably

#105

Are we just deluding ourselves by thinking this won't happen in every single domain of human endeavor?

I can't think of a single area, other than a subset of games, where domain experts have been outclassed by AI.

I think that's the wrong perspective on it. People want to compare how an AI does at one thing to how the best people in the world do at that thing.

What you really want to do is compare how good the AI is at that thing compared to the _average person_ at that thing, and I would guess that generative AI outclasses the average human at almost every task that it's even moderately competent at.

People like to point out how it can't pass the bar exam or answer simple math questions or whatever, and how that _proves_ that it's not intelligent or can't use reasoning when _most people_ would also fail at the same tasks.

Almost all the Gen AI models already have super human competency if you judge it across _everything it can do_.

Re: AI poetry is indistinguishable from human poetry and is rated more favorably

#106
post #98

The use of non-experts as judges renders this meaningless. Imagine an algorithm that drew random shapes. Then ask people who've never engaged with art theory or history to compare its output with what they see in a modern art museum. You'd get results similar to this. Many forms of art are actually quite inaccessible to novices. What poets see in poems or composers hears in compositions is nothing like what someone f…

The thing is that, for most of society, art exists to serve a utilitarian purpose (make us feel good/bad/inspired/destroyed/whatever other influence). Essentially just to induce a "vibe". Anything other than what most people intuitively feel after consuming it is secondary and, frankly, unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

That may be how most people see art, but it is not how artists see art.

Neither side is "right" or has a monopoly on the definition of art. You can't tell someone else how to think or feel about something.

Re: AI poetry is indistinguishable from human poetry and is rated more favorably

#108
post #87
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe washing dishes is harder than doing art, who knew?

I honestly think that there might be some truth to that. If you look at Boston Dynamics, these are some of the very best roboticists on the planet, and it's taken decades to get robots that can walk almost as well as humans. I don't think it's incompetence on Boston Dynamics' end, I think it turns out that a lot of the stuff that's trivial and instinctual for us is actually ridiculously expensive to try and do on a c…

And those robots can paint like a good painter??

Re: AI poetry is indistinguishable from human poetry and is rated more favorably

#109

Ernest Davis has an outstanding and definitive rebuttal of these claims: https://cs.nyu.edu/~davise/papers/GPT-Poetry.pdf The basic problem is that GPT generates easy poetry, and the authors were comparing to difficult human poets like Walt Whitman and Emily Dickinson, and rating using a bunch of people who don't particuarly like poetry. If you actually do like poetry, comparing PlathGPT to Sylvia Plath is so offensi…

  > The basic problem is that GPT generates easy poetry
I was going to come in here and say this. I'll even make the claim that GPT and LLMs __cannot write poetry__.

Of course, this depends on what we mean by "poetry." Art is so hard to define, we might as well call it ineffable. Maybe Justice Potter said it best, "I know it when I see it." And I think most artists would agree with this, because the point is to evoke emotion. It is why you might take a nice picture and put it up on a wall in your house but no one would ever put it in a museum. But good art should make you stop, take some time to think, figure out what's important to you.

The art that is notable is not something you simply hang on a wall and get good feelings from when you glance at it. They are deep. They require processing. This is purposeful. A feature, not a bug. They are filled with cultural rhetoric and commentary. Did you ever ask why you are no Dorothea Lange? Why your photos aren't as meaningful as Alfred Eisenstaedt's? Clearly There's something happening here, but what it is ain't exactly clear.

Let me give a very recent example. Here[0] is a letter from The Onion (yes, that Onion, the one who bought InfoWars The Onion) wrote an amicus brief to the Supreme Court. It is full of satire while arguing that satire cannot be outlawed. It is __not__ intended to be read at a glance. In fact, they even specifically say so

  > (“[T]he very nature of parody . . . is to catch the reader off guard at first glance, after which the ‘victim’ recognizes that the joke is on him to the extent that it caught him unaware.”).
That parody only works if one is able to be fooled. You can find the author explaining it more here[1].

But we're coders, not lawyers. So maybe a better analogy is what makes "beautiful code." It sure as fuck is not aesthetically pleasing. Tell me what about this code is aesthetically pleasing and easy to understand?

    float InvSqrt(float x){
        float xhalf = 0.5f * x;
        int i = *(int*)&x;            
        i = 0x5f3759df - (i >> 1);    
        x = *(float*)&i;             
        x = x*(1.5f - xhalf*x*x);     
        return x;
    }
It requires people writing explanations![2] Yet, I'd call this code BEAUTIFUL. A work of art. I'd call you a liar or a wizard if you truly could understand this code at a glance.

I specifically bring this up because there's a lot of sentiment around here that "you don't need to write pretty code, just working code." When in fact, the reality is that the two are one in the same. The code is pretty __because__ it works. The code is a masterpiece because it solves issues you probably didn't even know existed! There's this talk as if there's this bifurcation between "those who __like__ to write code and those who use it to get things done." Or those who think "code should be pretty vs those who think code should just work." I promise you, everyone in the former group is deeply concerned with making things work. And I'll tell you now, you've been sold a lie. Code is not supposed to be a Lovcraftian creature made of spaghetti and duct tape. You should kill it. It doesn't want to live. You are the Frankenstein of the story.

To see the beauty in the code, you have to sit and stare at it. Parse it. Contemplate it. Ask yourself why each decision is being made. There is so much depth to this and it's writing is a literal demonstration of how well Carmack understands every part of the computer: the language, how the memory is handled, how the CPU operations function at a low level, etc.

I truly feel that we are under attack. I don't know about you, but I do not want to go gentle into that good night. Slow down, you move too fast, you got to make the morning last. It's easy to say not today, I got a lot to do, but then you'll grow up to be just like your dad.

[0] https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/22/22-293/242292/2022...

[1] https://www.law.berkeley.edu/article/peeling-layers-onion-he...

[2] https://betterexplained.com/articles/understanding-quakes-fa...

Re: AI poetry is indistinguishable from human poetry and is rated more favorably

#110
post #55

Ernest Davis has an outstanding and definitive rebuttal of these claims: https://cs.nyu.edu/~davise/papers/GPT-Poetry.pdf The basic problem is that GPT generates easy poetry, and the authors were comparing to difficult human poets like Walt Whitman and Emily Dickinson, and rating using a bunch of people who don't particuarly like poetry. If you actually do like poetry, comparing PlathGPT to Sylvia Plath is so offensi…

I don't see how the authors are dishonest about it, or that the rebuttal refutes any of the actual claims made. They make it clear in the paper that they're specifically evaluating people who aren't especially interested in poetry, and talk at length about how and why this is different from other approaches. I suppose the clickbait title gives a bad first impression. To summarize the facts: when people were asked to…

I believe you missed the OP's point. Poetry is to be processed. That's a feature, not a bug. Now that we're in an analytical conversation you need to process both papers and OP's words. Like poetry, there is context, things between the lines. Because to write everything explicitly would require a book's worth of text. LLMs are amazing compression machines, but they pale in comparison to what we do. If you're take a step back, you'll even see this comment is littered with that compression itself.
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