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We can mine asteroids for space food

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Re: We can mine asteroids for space food

#101

Post by ben_w »

lkbm wrote: post #96
jorgesborges wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This actually makes sense to me in terms of logical coherence. I understand and support people who follow ethically-motivated diets but the fact is a line is always drawn somewhere. Plants are alive. Why is a carrot’s life less important than a rabbit’s? I don’t think we’re good at making claims about where particular organisms sit along a gradient of consciousness we can’t even properly define. I like to imagine oth…

I'm pretty sure you draw the same line: * Pealing a carrot: not cruel * Skinning a rabbit alive: unnecessarily cruel For all the nonsense about plants experiencing "pain", they, uh, don't. Animals do. Outside of bad philosophical arguments, everyone behaves broadly in accordance with that belief.

I certainly behave as though plants do not experience pain.

However: plants are only noticeably animate in time-lapse footage, and have no mouth with which to scream.

I have no idea why the particular electrochemical properties of the neurotransmitter exchange membranes in my body are able to give rise to qualia, so without that I can't rule out plants doing that but very slowly.

Of course, if they do, then my skin may have an independent qualia to my kidneys let alone to what I call "me", so as you say, I don't live my life as if it were so.

Re: We can mine asteroids for space food

#103

Post by aylmao »

jorgesborges wrote: post #82
Terr_ wrote: post #56

I suppose the next step beyond vegetarianism and veganism will be mineralism: Food using molecules certified never to have been part of any known living organism. I remember there was a fictional advertisement for such a product in a sci-fi story, but not exactly where.

This actually makes sense to me in terms of logical coherence. I understand and support people who follow ethically-motivated diets but the fact is a line is always drawn somewhere. Plants are alive. Why is a carrot’s life less important than a rabbit’s? I don’t think we’re good at making claims about where particular organisms sit along a gradient of consciousness we can’t even properly define. I like to imagine oth…

I know a lot of people choose to draw lines, but I personally don't think it's necessarily a "line" one has to draw. I think this is best thought of as a gradient. A rabbit is more like us, than a carrot. It has eyes, a backbone, moms take care of their babies, etc. We look at a dogs and can clearly see loyalty, happiness, longing, etc— emotions we associate a lot with humanity.

Where these animals fall in the "they're similar to a human" gradient is highly subjective, especially since it may have an emotional component to it. But we don't have to all agree on the definition of this gradient when the consequences (what to eat) are very personal.

I will say though I admire this in humans. We have achieved plentifulness to the point we can attach moral and emotional meaning to our diet if we wish to. It's a pretty unique expression of our empathy.

Re: We can mine asteroids for space food

#104

Post by miohtama »

fenollp wrote: post #100

> The asteroid mass needed to support one astronaut for one year is between 160 000 metric tons and 5000 metric tons. Even these orders of magnitude are correct, this is still 14t-438t of material to process /per day/ just for one person.

Eating like an elephant, I see

Re: We can mine asteroids for space food

#105

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

Reading these threads, I am reminded of a short story I once read, where we invented transporters, but every time you went through one, a copy stepped out, and left you in this weird limbo world, like in The Langoliers. You couldn’t actually eat or drink anything, so transportees became cannibals, and killed and ate newcomers.

Re: We can mine asteroids for space food

#106

Post by otikik »

jorgesborges wrote: post #82
Terr_ wrote: post #56

I suppose the next step beyond vegetarianism and veganism will be mineralism: Food using molecules certified never to have been part of any known living organism. I remember there was a fictional advertisement for such a product in a sci-fi story, but not exactly where.

This actually makes sense to me in terms of logical coherence. I understand and support people who follow ethically-motivated diets but the fact is a line is always drawn somewhere. Plants are alive. Why is a carrot’s life less important than a rabbit’s? I don’t think we’re good at making claims about where particular organisms sit along a gradient of consciousness we can’t even properly define. I like to imagine oth…

I think the distinction has always been between "alive" and "conscious", not between "alive" and "dead". A rabbit is more self-aware than a carrot, we think (because it has a central nervous system).

If you dig deep enough, the frontier between alive and death is actually blurry. Things like viruses challenge the intuitive understanding of what alive means.

The water cycle makes it so that any water that you consume today will probably have been part of some other alive being at some point in the past.

Re: We can mine asteroids for space food

#107

Post by tayo42 »

jorgesborges wrote: post #82
Terr_ wrote: post #56

I suppose the next step beyond vegetarianism and veganism will be mineralism: Food using molecules certified never to have been part of any known living organism. I remember there was a fictional advertisement for such a product in a sci-fi story, but not exactly where.

This actually makes sense to me in terms of logical coherence. I understand and support people who follow ethically-motivated diets but the fact is a line is always drawn somewhere. Plants are alive. Why is a carrot’s life less important than a rabbit’s? I don’t think we’re good at making claims about where particular organisms sit along a gradient of consciousness we can’t even properly define. I like to imagine oth…

Some creatures are really weird too. Cutting up urchins for uni made me think what is really alive or what animals really are

Re: We can mine asteroids for space food

#108

Post by tzs »

jorgesborges wrote: post #82
Terr_ wrote: post #56

I suppose the next step beyond vegetarianism and veganism will be mineralism: Food using molecules certified never to have been part of any known living organism. I remember there was a fictional advertisement for such a product in a sci-fi story, but not exactly where.

This actually makes sense to me in terms of logical coherence. I understand and support people who follow ethically-motivated diets but the fact is a line is always drawn somewhere. Plants are alive. Why is a carrot’s life less important than a rabbit’s? I don’t think we’re good at making claims about where particular organisms sit along a gradient of consciousness we can’t even properly define. I like to imagine oth…

> Plants are alive. Why is a carrot’s life less important than a rabbit’s?

Some have indeed wondered about plant rights. There is even a vegetable rights protest song, "Carrot Juice is Murder" [1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmK0bZl4ILM

Re: We can mine asteroids for space food

#109

Post by flysand7 »

otikik wrote: post #106
jorgesborges wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This actually makes sense to me in terms of logical coherence. I understand and support people who follow ethically-motivated diets but the fact is a line is always drawn somewhere. Plants are alive. Why is a carrot’s life less important than a rabbit’s? I don’t think we’re good at making claims about where particular organisms sit along a gradient of consciousness we can’t even properly define. I like to imagine oth…

I think the distinction has always been between "alive" and "conscious", not between "alive" and "dead". A rabbit is more self-aware than a carrot, we think (because it has a central nervous system). If you dig deep enough, the frontier between alive and death is actually blurry. Things like viruses challenge the intuitive understanding of what alive means. The water cycle makes it so that any water that you consume…

Well according to biological taxonomy, viruses aren't "life", so the terms "alive" and "dead" don't quite apply to them

Re: We can mine asteroids for space food

#110

Post by mmooss »

wruza wrote: post #89
jorgesborges wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This actually makes sense to me in terms of logical coherence. I understand and support people who follow ethically-motivated diets but the fact is a line is always drawn somewhere. Plants are alive. Why is a carrot’s life less important than a rabbit’s? I don’t think we’re good at making claims about where particular organisms sit along a gradient of consciousness we can’t even properly define. I like to imagine oth…

In my book about distant civilizations they eradicate all life except the forms that are able to function as you described. Because it’s pointless to just avoid participating in a meat grinder that life itself is naturally. The point is to stop anything that suffers from suffering. They dream about visiting every world and eradicating unascended lifes there for that same reason.

> it’s pointless to just avoid participating in a meat grinder that life itself is naturally.

We've revolutionized human life over a few generations, and even more over a few hundred years. One outcome is that you can communicate freely - politically and technologically - with people all over the world. And you use that to say how pointless it is to try to improve.

Think bigger and better. People did all that work to get us to this point; what will we do? How will we pull our weight?

The only thing you have to fear is trendy contempt itself.

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