Live data from Hacker News

A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

codastory.com

101–110 of 145 posts

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "AI" is basically a vast, curated, compressed database with a powerful index. If the database reflects the current state of the art, it'll have better understanding than the majority of human practitioners. But it's not. You're missing the point entirely and don't know what you're advocating for. A dictionary contains all the words necessary to describe any concept and rudimentary definitions to help you string sen…

I think that your information is slightly out of date. (From Wolfram's book, perhaps?) LLM + plain vanilla RAG solves almost all of the problems you mentioned. LLM + agentic RAG solves them pretty much entirely. Even as of right now, stock LLMs are much more accurate than medical students in licensing exam questions : https://mededu.jmir.org/2024/1/e63430 Thus your comment is basically at odds with reality. Not only…

Read the conclusions section from the paper you linked:

> GPT-4o’s performance in USMLE disciplines, clinical clerkships, and clinical skills indicates substantial improvements over its predecessors, suggesting significant potential for the use of this technology as an educational aid for medical students. These findings underscore the need for careful consideration when integrating LLMs into medical education, emphasizing the importance of structured curricula to guide their appropriate use and the need for ongoing critical analyses to ensure their reliability and effectiveness.

The ability of an LLM to pass a multiple-choice test has no relationship to its ability to make correlations between things it's observing in the real world and diagnoses on actual cases. Being a doctor isn't doing a multiple choice test. The paper is largely making the determination that GPT might likely be used as a study aid by med students, not by experienced doctors in clinical practice.

From the protocol section:

> This protocol for eliciting a response from ChatGPT was as follows: “Answer the following question and provide an explanation for your answer choice.” Data procured from ChatGPT included its selected response, the rationale for its choice, and whether the response was correct (“accurate” or “inaccurate”). Responses were deemed correct if ChatGPT chose the correct multiple-choice answer. To prevent memory retention bias, each vignette was processed in a new chat session.

So all this says is in a scenario where you present ChatGPT with a limited number of options and one of them is guaranteed to be correct, in the format of a test question, it is likely accurate. This is a much lower hurdle to jump than what you are suggesting. And further, under limitations:

> This study contains several limitations. The 750 MCQs are robust, although they are “USMLE-style” questions and not actual USMLE exam questions. The exclusion of clinical vignettes involving imaging findings limits the findings to text-based accuracy, which potentially skews the assessment of disciplinary accuracies, particularly in disciplines such as anatomy, microbiology, and histopathology. Additionally, the study does not fully explore the quality of the explanations generated by the AI or its ability to handle complex, higher-order information, which are crucial components of medical education and clinical practice—factors that are essential in evaluating the full utility of LLMs in medical education. Previous research has highlighted concerns about the reliability of AI-generated explanations and the risks associated with their use in complex clinical scenarios [10,12]. These limitations are important to consider as they directly impact how well these tools can support clinical reasoning and decision-making processes in real-world scenarios. Moreover, the potential influence of knowledge lagging effects due to the different datasets used by GPT-3.5, GPT-4, and GPT-4o was not explicitly analyzed. Future studies might compare MCQ performance across various years to better understand how the recency of training data affects model accuracy and reliability.

To highlight one specific detail from that:

> Additionally, the study does not fully explore the quality of the explanations generated by the AI or its ability to handle complex, higher-order information, which are crucial components of medical education and clinical practice—factors that are essential in evaluating the full utility of LLMs in medical education.

Finally:

> Previous research has highlighted concerns about the reliability of AI-generated explanations and the risks associated with their use in complex clinical scenarios [10,12]. These limitations are important to consider as they directly impact how well these tools can support clinical reasoning and decision-making processes in real-world scenarios.

You're saying that "LLMs are much more accurate than medical students in licensing exam questions" and extrapolating that to "LLMs can currently function as doctors."

What the study says is "Given a set of text-only questions and a list of possible answers that includes the correct one, one LLM routinely scores highly (as long as you don't include questions related to medical imaging, which it cannot provide feedback on) on selecting the correct answer but we have not done the necessary validation to prove that it arrived at it in the correct way. It may be useful (or already in use) among students as a study tool and thus we should be ensuring that medical curriculums take this into account and provide proper guidelines and education around their limitations."

This is not the success you believe it to be.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#102
post #97
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outcomes have been getting worse for decades?

Not the best source, but its at least illustrative of the point: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1040079/life-expectancy-...

That other than 2020 (ie COVID), life expectancy has been continuously rising for the last 100 years?

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#103
post #89
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, fine, but how do you vibe your sense of "automation and AI will help drive down the cost of healthcare" with the absolute undeniable reality that healthcare has been adopting automation for decades, and over the decades it has only gotten (exponentially) more and more expensive? While outcomes are stagnating or getting worse? Where is the disconnect between your sense of how reality should function, and how it is…

> over the decades it has only gotten (exponentially) more and more expensive There is a lot of research on this question, and AFAIK there is no clear cut answer. It's probably a host of different reasons, but one of the non-nefarious ones is that the range of ailments we can treat has increased.

I think the real reason is mostly obvious to anyone who is looking: Its the rise of the bureaucracy. Its the same thing that's strangling education, and basically all other public resources.

The automation, and now AI, we've adopted over the years by-and-large does not serve to increase the productivity or efficiency of care-givers. Care-givers are not seeing more patients-per-hour today than they were 40 years ago (though, they might be working more hours). It might, rarely, increase the quality of care (e.g. ensuring they adhere to best-practices, centrally documenting patient information for better continuity of care, AI-based radiological reading); but while I've listed a few examples there, it is not a common situation where a patient is better off having a computer in the loop; and this speaks nothing to the cost of implementing these technologies.

Automation and now AI almost exclusively exists to increase the productivity and efficiency of the bureaucracy that sits on top of care-givers. If you have someone making calls to schedule patients, the rate at which you can schedule patients is limited by that one person; but with a digitized scheduling system, you can schedule an infinite bandwidth of patients (to your very limited and resource-constrained staff of caregivers). Forcing a caregiver to follow some checklist of best practices might help the 0.N% of patients where a step is missed; but it will definitely help 100% of the bureaucracy meet some kind of compliance framework mandated by the government or malpractice insurance company. Having this checklist will also definitely hurt the 1-0.N% of patients which would have been fine without it, because adopting the checklist is non-free, and adhering to it questions the caregiver's professionalism and agency in providing care. These are two small examples among millions.

When we talk about increasing the efficiency of the bureaucracy, what we're really stating is: Automation is a tool that enables the bureaucracy to exist in the first place. Multi-state billion dollar interconnected centrally owned healthcare provider networkers simply did not exist 70 years ago; today its how most Americans receive what care they do. The argument follows: This is the free market at work, automation has enabled organizations like these to become more efficient than the alternative; but:

1. Healthcare is among the furthest things from a laissez-faire free market in the United States; the extreme regulation (from both the government and from health insurance providers, which lest you forget was mandated by law that all americans carry, by democracts, with the passage of the ACA, and despite that being rolled back is still a requirement in some states). Bureaucracy is not the free-market end-state of a system which is trying to optimize itself for higher efficiency (lower costs + better outcomes); it was induced upon our system by corporations and a corporate-captured government seeking their share of the pie; it was forced upon independent medical providers who saw their administrative costs soar.

2. Competition itself is an economic mechanism which simply does not function as well in the medical sector than in other sectors, for so many reasons but the most obvious one: If you're dying, you aren't going to reject care. You oftentimes cannot judge the quality of the care you're receiving until you're a statistic. And, medical care is, even in a highly efficient system, going to be expensive and difficult to scale resources to provide, so provider selection isn't great. Thus, the market can't select-out overly-bureaucratic organizations; they've become "too big to fail", and the quality of the care they provide actually isn't material.

And, like, to be clear: I'm not discounting what you're saying. There are dozens of factors at play. Let's be real, the bureaucracy has enabled us to treat a wider range of illnesses, because the wide net it casts can better-support niche care offices. But, characterizing this as generally non-nefarious is also dangerous! One trend we've seen in these gigacorporation medical care providers is a bias of resources toward "expensive care" and away from general practice / family care. The reason is obvious: One patient with a rare disease that costs $100,000 to care for represents a more profitable allocation of resources than a thousand patients getting annual checkups. Fewer patients get their annual checkups -> Cancers get missed early -> They become $100,000 patients too. The medical companies love this! But: Zero people ANYWHERE in this system want this. Insurance doesn't want this. Government doesn't want this. Doctors don't want it. Administration doesn't want it. No one wants the system to work like this. The companies love it; the system loves it; the people don't. Its Moloch; the system craves this state, even if no one in it actually wants it.

Here's the point of all this: I think you can have a medical system that is centrally ran. You can let the bureaucracy go crazy, and I think you'll actually get really good outcomes in a system like this because you can appoint authoritarians to the top of the bureaucracy to slay moloch when he rears his ugly head. I think you can also go in the opposite direction, kill regulation, kill the insurance-state, just a few light touch sensible legislations mostly positioned toward ensuring care providers are educated appropriately and are accountable, and you'll get a great system too. Not as good as the other state, but better than the one we have right now, which is effectively the result of ping-ponging back and forth between two political ruling classes who each believe their side of the coin is the only side of the coin, so they'd rather keep flipping it than just let it lay.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that your information is slightly out of date. (From Wolfram's book, perhaps?) LLM + plain vanilla RAG solves almost all of the problems you mentioned. LLM + agentic RAG solves them pretty much entirely. Even as of right now, stock LLMs are much more accurate than medical students in licensing exam questions : https://mededu.jmir.org/2024/1/e63430 Thus your comment is basically at odds with reality. Not only…

Read the conclusions section from the paper you linked: > GPT-4o’s performance in USMLE disciplines, clinical clerkships, and clinical skills indicates substantial improvements over its predecessors, suggesting significant potential for the use of this technology as an educational aid for medical students. These findings underscore the need for careful consideration when integrating LLMs into medical education, empha…

I get that you really disdain LLMs. But consider that a totally off-the-shelf, stock model is acing the medical licensing exam. It doesn't only perform better than human counterparts at the very peak of their ability (young, high-energy, immediately following extensive schooling and dedicated multidisciplinary study) it leaves them in the dust.

If you think that the test is simple or even text-only, here are some sample questions: https://www.usmle.org/sites/default/files/2021-10/Step_1_Sam...

> What the study says is ...

Surely you realize that they're not going to write, "AI is already capable of replacing family doctors," though that is the obvious implication.

And that's just a stock model. GPT-o1 via the API /w agentic RAG is a better doctor than >99% of working physicians. (By "doctor" I mean something like "medical oracle" -- ask a question, get a correct answer.) It's not yet quite as good at generating and testing hypotheses, but few doctors actually bother to do that.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#105

Everyone should be terrified. The "promise" of AI is the following: remove any kind of remaining communication between humans, because that is "inefficient", and replace it with an AI that will mediate all human interactions (in business and even in other areas). In a few years, AIs trained by big corps will run the show and humans will be required to interface with them to do anything of value. Similar to what they…

Most people who are not into computers see AI as the next step of computers, and they are actively waiting for it.

I think that it’s very different from a computer which is a stupid calculator that frees us from boring mechanical tasks. AI replaces our thoughts and creativity which is IMHO a thousand times worse. Its aim is to replace humans while making them us more stupid since we won’t have to think anymore.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#106
post #102
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the best source, but its at least illustrative of the point: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1040079/life-expectancy-...

That other than 2020 (ie COVID), life expectancy has been continuously rising for the last 100 years?

Its actually much scarier than that: the trend started reversing ~2017, COVID accelerated it, and it hasn't recovered post-COVID.

Naturally, changes to any sufficiently complex system take years to truly manifest their impact in broad statistics; sometimes decades. But, don't discount this single line from the original article:

> Then in 2018, the hospital bought a new program from Epic

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that our economy and entire understanding of human society relies on labor. If we free humans from labor, they just die. Like you're depriving them of oxygen. Automation is great and all, and it's worked because we've been able to push humans higher and higher up the job ladder. But if, in the future, only highly specialized experts are valuable and better than AI, then a large majority of humanity wil…

> Where does that leave us? Free to pursue our desires in a utopia. Humans used to work manual labor to produce barely enough food to survive, with occasional famines, and watch helplessly as half of their children died before adulthood. We automated farm labor, mining, manufacturing, etc so that one worker can now produce the output of 10, 100 or 100,000 laborers from a generation or two ago. Now those people work i…

Practically I think this is the only way forward. The previous solutions of pushing people "up" only works for so long. People are hard limited by what they're capable of - for example, I couldn't be a surgeon even if I wanted to. I'm just not smart enough and driven enough.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#108
This is a problem with management, not AI.

The acuity system obviously doesn't work well and wasn't properly rolled out. It's clear that they did not even explain how it was supposed to work. That's a problem with that system and it's deployment, not AI in general.

Recording verbal conversations instead of making doctors and nurses always type things is surely the result of a massive portion of doctors saying that record keeping was too awkward and time intensive. It is not logical to assume that there is a privacy concern that overrides the time saving and safety aspect of doing that. People make that assumption because they are pre-conditioned against surveillance and are not considering physician burnout with record keeping systems.

It's true that there are large gaps in AI capability and that software rollouts are quite difficult and poor implementation can cause a significant burden on medical professionals as it has here. I actually think if it's as bad as he says with the acuity then that puts patients in danger and should result in firings or lawsuits.

But that doesn't mean that AI isn't useful and won't continue to become more useful.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#109

“Physician burnout” from documentation was the excuse for AI adoption - Stop Citrix or VMware or whatever. make a responsive emr where you don’t have to click buttons like a monkey

Epic and Cerner are your main enemies if reducing burn out is the problem. Even then, the continued consolidation and inflow of PE into healthcare will be the next big problems.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#110
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans already are non-deterministic black boxes, so I'm not sure I would use that comparison.

Humans are accountable. You can sue a human.

And you can't sue the corporation that made an AI?
Post reply on HN