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XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

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Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#101

Post by shadowgovt »

singpolyma3 wrote: post #86
shadowgovt wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And nowadays it faces a marketing issue because it's extensible, so none of those problems go away because a solution exists somewhere. "Hey, I want to set up a modern messenger." "Sure! Here's XMPP, the ten extensions you need to enable and configure (problem left as an exercise for the reader), and the seven ports you need to open!" "... Okay? A Matrix node is apparently a drop-in solution; I'm gonna use that." XMP…

> problem left as an exercise for the reader Or install something that comes set up the way you probably wanted and never think about it again. Just docker and poof. Like Snikket

Yeah, Snikket looks like what I'm looking for. I didn't find it the last time I tried this; I went the "install what dpkg can see" route and that went poorly.

If I can make time again, I'll give that a look!

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#102

Post by gog »

singpolyma3 wrote: post #12
skeptrune wrote: post #3

I think the big issue with XMPP are the clients. Element is so much better that it's hard not to recommend Matrix to people despite its bloat and metadata leakage problems. JMP/Snikket for tying a normal phone number to your XMPP @ are really convenient, but the clients remain a problem. Plus, SIP dialers are not supported on IOS afaik. I am really surprised there isn't a venture backed company pushing XMPP forward.…

I'm curious which apps you've tried and what the deficiencies are you find in them. There are a number of companies in the ecosystem. Most have chosen not to pursue VC money in order to keep things going much longer. While a venture backed company can have success, most flame out eventually in my observation.

Is there an iOS app that supports push messages?

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#103

Post by WD-42 »

singpolyma3 wrote: post #82
WD-42 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it that pidgin didn’t keep up with features, or more likely that one by one the major platforms pulled xmpp support to the point where there was no reason for a normal person to use pidgin?

There were never any major platform with good XMPP support except for Google Talk anyway. So not sure about "one by one".

Facebook? Or was that something else. All I remember is a golden age when between google and Facebook I had like 90% of my non work contacts available to chat with on pidgin. And my work used xmpp internally, it was glorious.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#104

Post by ptman »

ensignavenger wrote: post #61
pixelatedindex wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a “modern” equivalent to XMPP? How does it compare to the matrix protocol?

Based on my research, but no deep implementation experience with either: XMPP continues to advance, so could be considered modern if you use the latest versions. Matrix is more of an event sync protocol, consisting of a server to server sync protocol and a client to server protocol (sort of like email). It is mostly used for chat, but appears to be more flexible. Matrix uses JSON and HTTP. XMPP is focused on chatmess…

Matrix is described as a distrubuted graph database. Chat is just the most common use case, but there are others.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#105

Post by ptman »

roflmaostc wrote: post #11
WD-42 wrote: post #9

I really miss the days of being able to use pidgin to talk to everyone

Haha yeah. Within Pidgin I used ICQ, XMPP (over my own VPS), Skype, Facebook messenger, ... Now I have to use different apps for Signal, Element, Slack, Discord, WhatsApp, Telegram, ...

Beeper (built on matrix) has convenient bridges to lots of services. You can use the hosted service or self-host (https://github.com/beeper/bridge-manager) or you can host plain matrix using https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy/

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#106

Post by ptman »

rkallos wrote: post #93
dogleash wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are good clients. Whatsapp, Grindr, Kik, League of Legends, Fortnight, Eve Online. They have something in common though: not letting users communicate outside their own ecosystems.

For what it's worth, Grindr's chat hasn't been powered by XMPP since April 2024.

Please elaborate. Why? What is it using now?

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#107

Post by jauntywundrkind »

radarsat1 wrote: post #17
arcbyte wrote: post #6

XMPP lost because the spec is overcomplicated and hard to implement. As a result, good clients never materialized and innovation was really hard to do. Everything in this article is an offshoot of the overcomplicated spec.

Not sure I buy that explanation. More likely is thst there's too little business advantage to being compatible with others and too much business advantage to having people inside your own ecosystem. Simple as that. There's just very little motivation for compatibility between these systems unless you are open source.

My frustration with "too complex" is high. Criticism in general often devolves to very broad heresay & un-backed opinions, but man, too complex is just one of the weakest by far at this.

Few people have spent the time to get to know a protocol or system well enough to know what really was unnecessary or bad. The ability to crash out & then talk smack is high. Most haters haven't even earned that right!

XMPP is pretty simple to get started with. Theres not that many extensions you "really should have". The extension model let them grow & adapt well over time, giving more weight to the underlying eXtensibility model. I tend to agree it was mainly a push for privatization & lack of interest in economic mutualism that lead to drift away from XMPP.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#108

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

aidenn0 wrote: post #5

We evaluated some options at work for self-hosted chat about a decade ago. XMPP lost out due to the lack of a good iPhone client. Not sure if things are any better now.

Btw we are working on a really great iOS client for xmpp. I think we'll release it in a few months.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#109

Post by rw_grim »

WD-42 wrote: post #9

I really miss the days of being able to use pidgin to talk to everyone

We're still here and we're getting close to finally getting a pre alpha Pidgin 3 out the door. In the mean time check out https://pidgin.im/plugins for third party plugins that provide at least basic support most of the modern protocols.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#110

Post by rw_grim »

MattJ100 wrote: post #30
im3w1l wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These days I can't even use pidgin for xmpp, because the omemo plugin is too wonky. Now someone I'm sure will say I'm just holding it wrong and that may be so.. but I doesn't work for me despite trying for a reasonable amount of time to get it working. And regarding other protocols I'm too scared these days. Every company is running algorithms looking for deviants to perma-shadow-ban and I just can't risk something l…

The problem here is that Pidgin's development didn't manage to keep up with the changing times. Stable branch is 10-15 years behind XMPP features. The developers are working on a Pidgin 3.0 (rewrite?) but that still has quite some way to go. Unfortunately Pidgin was one of the most popular ways to use XMPP back in the day, and this had a knock-on effect on XMPP's reputation as an out-of-date technology. People still…

Sorry Mattj, but thank you for saying these things kindly :)

It's true Pidgin 2's XMPP support sucks, there's no denying that. That said we can't easily fix that with the current API which is why Pidgin3/Purple3 is the only path forward.

That said, I'm pushing to have an experimental release of Pidgin 3 out by the end of the year. However it's only going to have IRC support right now because well there's only so many hours in the day especially when Open Source is your passion project and not your day job.

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