BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time • Hacker News Board

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#101

Post by fspeech » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 10:09 PM UTC

hangonhn wrote: post #24

kelnos wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we have any insight into how much the Chinese government supports BYD? $2B seems like a pretty small number, to be honest. I would expect the number to be at least an order of magnitude (or two!) higher for BYD. At any rate, $2B is a drop in Tesla's bucket; their quarterly revenue is around $25B now. That $2B may have been given at a critical time in Tesla's development and growth, but today it would be 2% of thei…

From: https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-s... "BYD received a total of 37.1 billion yuan in tax rebates over the five-year period, nearly four times the 9.3 billion yuan it received in subsidies. Additionally, BYD has secured long-term bank loans at interest rates between 2.05% and 2.98%, lower than the one-year prime lending rate of 3.35%, according to the company filings. " So it sounds like…

Tesla gets the same rebate in China.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#102

Post by IncreasePosts » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 10:10 PM UTC

churchill wrote: post #74

echelon wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a vast oversimplification that discounts the incredible geopolitical changes over the past 40 years. But at the end of the day, we're protecting our own interests.

I understand - I'm not wishing evil on the West. I want prosperity for all humanity. All I'm saying is that it's shortsightedness and hubris that even got Western automakers (and businesses at large) to this stage. Rest on their laurels, not learning from history, assuming the good times will continue unabated. Just like Jack Welch and General Electric: financialize companies to the max, optimize for quarterly share…

These complaints seem orthogonal to the question of China using dumping as a tactic to dominate a market. Even if you thought the US auto industry was very healthy and well run, it could still be existentially affected by a huge actor with near infinite money like the CCP dumping

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#103

Post by tivert » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 10:13 PM UTC

IncreasePosts wrote: post #96

tivert wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Otherwise completely eliminating our auto industry would be an enormous national security risk. But I have been told zealous adherence to free market dogma will guarantee national security, without explicitly considering it! [Also, I'm being sarcastic. I thought people would pick up on the double-standard in my original comment, but I guess free marketers can be that kooky sometimes. Everyone should realize by now…

Do any free market absolutists actually say these things, or are you just attacking a strawman? I assumed they would say something like tariffs=bad, unless it's to overcome market manipulation by some state actor.

> Do any free market absolutists actually say these things, or are you just attacking a strawman?

Oh, they totally do. See https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/11/26/mcdonalds-peace-nagorno... (paywall bypass: https://archive.is/lNwNQ) for an example:

> Friedman’s claim was simple: The benefits of economic integration reduce the policy choices open to governments, making war—which disrupts that integration—so unattractive as to be practically unthinkable. If that sounds like the theory of the capitalist peace as understood by Montesquieu, Adam Smith, and Richard Cobden, well, it pretty much was.

If you're going all-in on the free market and globalization, you need an answer to the national security objections, and that (unconvincing) answer is the risk to profit that conflict represents makes conflict unthinkable.

The thing that free market absolutists frequently forget that market values are not the only values, even among market participants. That's especially forgotten by forum participants who read a book proceed to swing around Econ 101 like it's a club.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#104

Post by Neonlicht » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 10:14 PM UTC

IncreasePosts wrote: post #96

tivert wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Otherwise completely eliminating our auto industry would be an enormous national security risk. But I have been told zealous adherence to free market dogma will guarantee national security, without explicitly considering it! [Also, I'm being sarcastic. I thought people would pick up on the double-standard in my original comment, but I guess free marketers can be that kooky sometimes. Everyone should realize by now…

Do any free market absolutists actually say these things, or are you just attacking a strawman? I assumed they would say something like tariffs=bad, unless it's to overcome market manipulation by some state actor.

The uncomfortable truth is that industry IS state politics.

The Volkswagen CEO has the German chancellor on speed dial. If your government's politicians have an emergency session on the future of a particular company there is no "free market".

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#105

Post by fastball » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 10:17 PM UTC

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #66

fastball wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half of all electric vehicles sold in the US are still Teslas, so I hardly think the competition has caught up.

> Half of all electric vehicles sold in the US are still Teslas * 48% And still falling. https://caredge.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and... the competition for EVs is becoming every automaker you have ever heard of (1), as well as some you haven't. Any one of them maintaining high market share is ever harder. 1) With the exception of Toyota.

Yes, as I said, half.

And yes, obviously their marketshare is falling. That is what happens when you create a new market and your competitors play catch up.

Apple's marketshare in the "entirely a screen" smartphone market has been falling ever since they introduced the iPhone. Are they doing poorly? Are people confidently saying things like "Apple just couldn't win the competition"?

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#106

Post by Simulacra » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 10:39 PM UTC

Given the opacity of the Chinese financial market, how can we validate this information?

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#107

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 10:43 PM UTC

amrocha wrote: post #39

polartx wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or if the build quality of their vehicles was not up to par with US regulation or the quality standards the US market is accustomed to..which seems very possible given the connotations generally shared domestically around the phrase “made in china”

Teslas have a reputation for shoddy quality but they’re still sold in the US, i’m sure BYD will be fine

[deleted]

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#108

Post by churchill » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 11:19 PM UTC

IncreasePosts wrote: post #102

churchill wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand - I'm not wishing evil on the West. I want prosperity for all humanity. All I'm saying is that it's shortsightedness and hubris that even got Western automakers (and businesses at large) to this stage. Rest on their laurels, not learning from history, assuming the good times will continue unabated. Just like Jack Welch and General Electric: financialize companies to the max, optimize for quarterly share…

These complaints seem orthogonal to the question of China using dumping as a tactic to dominate a market. Even if you thought the US auto industry was very healthy and well run, it could still be existentially affected by a huge actor with near infinite money like the CCP dumping

Only one country can print the world's reserve currency from thin air and it's not China nor the CCP. Why doesn't the US counter-dump then? Spoil the rest of us with affordable EVs and hasten humanity's transition away from ICE vehicles.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#109

Post by churchill » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 11:25 PM UTC

Watching American (and EU) industry leaders panic whenever China shows up never gets old: Western automakers had the chance to dominate international markets, but they stayed back at home, making overpriced cars for their captive audience of local buyers.

Whenever competitors showed up, they laughed at them, before panicking when those upstarts starting challenging their market dominance. It happened with Japan, Korea, and now China. And in other industries, e.g., solar, nuclear power, etc.

So, if you feel China competes unfairly, close off your markets. Countries without a local auto industry (large swathes of Asia, Latin America, the admittedly tiny African market) will accept Chinese EVs readily and it will give them time and experience to perfect their designs and business model. BYD & co. will then snatch American & EU automakers' foreign markets before they come home to swallow you alive by building factories in low-cost gateway countries like Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Mexico, & Brazil.

Basically, the Toyota cycle will repeat itself because Western (esp. American) automakers spent hundreds of billions on share buybacks instead of R&D.

PS: Wrote this as a reply to another comment, but I feel it needs to stand alone.

Re: BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

#110

Post by xster » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 11:30 PM UTC

porphyra wrote: post #86

linkgoron wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Battery is fine by itself, but I'd say that the range is somewhere between 315-350km depending on terrain etc. Definitely not the 420km that's advertised. I knew this beforehand from reviews so it wasn't unexpected, but I'd be pretty angry if I didn't read about it from reviews before I got the car. For me it's fine as I still only charge once a week and I still have around 70%-80% usually, unless I visit remote rela…

Basically every electric car gets about 75% of its advertised range though. Except maybe the Porsche Taycan.

Rivians are very accurate