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The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#101

Post by s1artibartfast »

isodev wrote: post #81
ckuehne wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no "nation from which the items were taken".

I’m not sure I follow - The items were taken from somewhere at some point in time and now there is a country on that territory.

It is an interesting theory, if I understand it. Is the Idea that controlling a geographic region makes one the rightful heir to any artifacts created by people and cultures previously in the region?

Does the USA have a claim to all indigenous Artifacts created in the US? It doesn't seem that different than Egypt laying claim to Egyptian artifacts.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#102

Post by s1artibartfast »

aunty_helen wrote: post #31

I've stood in the Cairo museum and looked at a wooden sarcophagus that's had all of it's gold chiseled off of it. Something that was once a work of art reduced to a wooden box for the price of a few ounces of gold. I have mixed feelings about repatriation and the elephant in the room, the British.

Seems to be a major bias in this perspective against the British. The contemporary Egyptians at the time of collection had even less interest in preservation.

Do you even know that the gold was removed by the British, and not some enterprising locals? The British were not cultural outliers in their graverobbing. They were outliers in that they saw historical value in items and chose to preserve them, instead of deconstructing them.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#103

Post by yread »

graemep wrote: post #54
danparsonson wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument wears thin very quickly, especially when the people of the culture from which the artifact originates are not able to view it (because it now lives in London instead of their home country), and thereby learn about their own history. See for example the Benin Bronzes; imagine that the original US Constitution document were housed in a museum in Nigeria.

The Benin Bronzes if returned will go to the descendants of the original owners - the kings of a kingdom built on slavery. I certainly know many people in countries from which these things were taken who think they are safer somewhere stable - I have heard exactly the comment that returning things will probably mean then end up stolen by politicians from Sri Lankans with regard to the things the Netherlands returned…

> end up stolen by politicians from Sri Lankans with regard to the things the Netherlands returned to Sri Lanka.

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying, but do you mean that Sri Lanka politicians stole the golden cannon or something else returned from Netherlands? Do you have a citation for that?

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#104

Post by s1artibartfast »

BoingBoomTschak wrote: post #37

Don't like the word "stolen" in this context, it sounds very newspeak-y compared to "plundered" or "looted". Ever heard of Vae victis ?

Even plundered and looted is often a misnomer.

In many cases, they could be replaced with collected, saved, and preserved.

Our current sense of historical preservation was not as pervasive in the past. In many places these materials would have been consumed or destroyed by locals who had more pragmatic concerns and no interest in the past.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#105

Post by INTPenis »

angry_moose wrote: post #7

Stuff the British Stole is a really good podcast (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) that explores the difficulties of these situations: https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/stuff-the-british-sto... Things like: - The current government in power may not allow the artifacts to be returned to the original people, but will accept them and place them in the national museum. In many of these cases; the original people…

I just learned about how in 1890 a ship filled with 19.5 tons of unwrapped cat mummies sailed from Alexandria to Liverpool, and the cargo was sold mostly as fertilizer.

Now I also learned that Egyptian authorities have since found even more mummified cats, perhaps even millions. But it's still a very striking example of the plundering mentality of the big naval powers.

https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p0jr4z6k/why-tonnes-of-mummif...

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#106

Post by Cyph0n »

comte7092 wrote: post #60
mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

While London is indeed a global city, access is very much not equal. Immigration/tourism requirements are always the strictest against the very countries who were plundered during colonial times, in comparison to rich countries with an imperial past/present. Most of the world will never visit the UK. Most of the value that the British museum supplies goes back to the UK in the form of tourism and to close allies of t…

Exactly. The majority of HN users have a privilege that they are not even aware of: visa-free/on arrival access to a large chunk of the world.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#107

Post by makeitdouble »

graemep wrote: post #84
makeitdouble wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the kings of a kingdom built on slavery. You cannot put that as a reason to keep the artifacts in the UK, of all places.

Why not? The UK had being making huge military efforts to suppress the slave trade for ninety years at the time it seized the Bronzes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Africa_Squadron

That doesn't dispel that the kingdom has been built on slave trade. It's more about what happened from there.

And of course there's a lot to say about it, even taking the absolute most charitable view, that's 90 years of mild effort after 3 centuries of slave trade. Considering what the UK keeps doing at that time and for the century after, I also wouldn't take the a naively charitable read of it in the first place.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#108

Post by makeitdouble »

ahmeneeroe-v2 wrote: post #91
makeitdouble wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the kings of a kingdom built on slavery. You cannot put that as a reason to keep the artifacts in the UK, of all places.

You lost me. Why not the UK of all places?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Britain

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#109

Post by jltsiren »

gaoshan wrote: post #30

The labeling of things in museums as "stolen" is lacking, IMO. In some cases, yes... straight up looted items are in museums. In other cases, though, the items could easily have ended up lost to time (or political, economic, social turmoil) if they had not been taken and put in museums outside of the places where they originated. Additionally some of these places would not have had the means to care for antiquities b…

And in some cases, the items were lost because they were put in museums. Europe was not exactly a stable place in the 20th century. Many things were destroyed in the wars, and many items were stolen from museums by conquerors, individual soldiers, and looters.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#110

Post by jahewson »

INTPenis wrote: post #105
angry_moose wrote: post #7

Stuff the British Stole is a really good podcast (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) that explores the difficulties of these situations: https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/stuff-the-british-sto... Things like: - The current government in power may not allow the artifacts to be returned to the original people, but will accept them and place them in the national museum. In many of these cases; the original people…

I just learned about how in 1890 a ship filled with 19.5 tons of unwrapped cat mummies sailed from Alexandria to Liverpool, and the cargo was sold mostly as fertilizer. Now I also learned that Egyptian authorities have since found even more mummified cats, perhaps even millions. But it's still a very striking example of the plundering mentality of the big naval powers. https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p0jr4z6k/why-tonn…

That’s amazing. I’d heard of mummies being used for paint [1] but fertilizer is a new one. To be fair it’s not “plundering” because they purchased them from an Egyptian farmer who discovered them on his land. Very much a two party activity.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy_brown

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