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Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

innocenceproject.org

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#101

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #74
nomilk wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose we lived in a world where it was possible to know someone's guilt or innocence with strictly 100% confidence. Curious to know if your views would change? Note the cost of incarceration is around ~$70k/year; enough to save lives, house people, heal people, feed people etc if put to other uses.

Guilt or innocence is irrellevant to the discussion about whether the death penalty is justified though, for several reasons; it's binary thinking (there's a right and a wrong, there's good and bad people); it's dehumanizing (a bad person is forever bad and will forever be a burden to society); it's reductionist (a prisoner unit costs X per year at no benefit to society), etc. I don't know enough philosophy to list e…

> Think hard about why someone commits a crime. What is their background, their circustances, and what would have prevented it from happenign.

I think that the kind of crimes which lead to a death sentence happen because the perpetrator is a bad person who likes to hurt others. There's no "background" or "circumstances" that would make you break into a woman's house and stab her to death - to do such a thing, you have to either not know or not care that it's wrong.

That doesn't by itself prove that the death penalty is right, or even that people who commit these kind of murders can never be rehabilitated. But it's really disturbing to me how often people whitewash the specific crimes death row inmates are accused of, as though we're all a couple missed paychecks away from randomly murdering people.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#102

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

voisin wrote: post #72
TrackerFF wrote: post #47

So it seems that the original case rested on the following: - Williams GF witness testimony, that Williams confessed to her. - Jailhouse witness testimony, that Williams had confessed to them. - That Williams had items (purse, laptop, etc.) in his car, on the day or day after the murder. But no DNA evidence? A death penalty seems pretty egregious, when you have that kind of evidence. Seems like there's plenty of reas…

The argument is that the girlfriend and jailhouse snitch both were looking to get the $10k reward money for his conviction. And that’s the only way the third point (had the items in the car) was known (from the girlfriend).

No, they knew the items were in the car because they searched his car and found the items. He has not, as far as I know, offered any alternative explanation of how he came into possession of a murder victim's random personal items.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#103

Post by EForEndeavour »

DoughnutHole wrote: post #83
krisoft wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the “evidence of innocence” is very flimsy “Evidence of innocence” is a very problematic concept. Have you thought through what is your evidence of your innocence? (Not just regarding to this case, but regarding all cases involving dead or missing people.) Should we execute you if you ever come up short?

The problem is there are two different standards of proof at different points of the legal process. Conviction requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt — all the onus is on the prosecution to prove that you indisputably committed that crime. In this case unreliable evidence was used without which this standard likely would not have been met. Once you’ve been convicted (in this case on shoddy evidence) the onus is on…

So conviction is a "trap door" of evidence weight? If someone is convicted based on evidence that is later shown to be totally insufficient to support that conviction, this new information does nothing to overturn the conviction?

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#104

Post by diogenes_atx »

knodi123 wrote: post #59
rdtsc wrote: post #2

> Even the victim’s family believes life without parole is the appropriate sentence That is odd, if there is no evidence that links him to the crime why not argue to let him go? Is that just from a desire to have someone punished, no matter who it is.

There's plenty of evidence. He confessed to his girlfriend, and a cellmate. He pawned the victim's possessions. He was seen disposing of bloody clothes. He already had 15 felony convictions in addition to offenses related to Ms. Gayle's murder: robbery (2), armed criminal action (2), assault (2), burglary (4), stealing (3), stealing a motor vehicle, and unlawful use of a weapon. Now, as to whether this evidence is so…

As stated in the article written by the legal scholars at the Innocence Project:

> "There is no reliable evidence proving that Marcellus Williams committed the crime for which he is scheduled to be executed on Sept. 24. The State destroyed or corrupted the evidence that could conclusively prove his innocence and the available DNA and other forensic crime-scene evidence does not match him."

DNA evidence is based on proven science, and the DNA evidence that was not destroyed by the state is exculpatory.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#105

Post by gizajob »

tempfile wrote: post #60
gizajob wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If murder is illegal, then it makes no difference if the state does it as punishment for committing murder. You’ve still sanctioned a murder, admittedly of a murderer. A civilised country accepts this simple logic and doesn’t sanction murder under any circumstances.

No. Murder is not the same as killing, just like not all taking is stealing. Even the most civilised society imaginable admits that killing is sometimes acceptable (in self defense, for example). Killing done by the state is trivially not murder by definition, and less trivially there are justifications you can argue about. But you have to argue about it, your "simple logic" is unfortunately too simple.

You're right that it is too simple, but it's an easy rule of thumb with which to think about and frame the problem.

If it's illegal to kill a human being, then it's illegal. The existence of a death penalty where the state is able to do it in certain cases, as in the main case where someone themselves has broken the rule and murdered, for me, still does not justify any kind of legalistic justification for sanctioning they be killed. While "the state" is this abstract entity formed by all of us, the state has to act through people, who then have to be involved in taking a life. The state's premeditation of the killing of the murderer is even more premeditated and drawn out form of murder. It's easy to be blinded by the language used around this towards what is happening. I believe even further that if the state is allowed to do it, it opens a loophole in thought that could actually cause more murders to happen, because if the state can do it, then maybe I'll do it too...

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#106

Post by EasyMark »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #93
JeremyNT wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's plenty of evidence. He confessed to his girlfriend, and a cellmate. Be careful, this is hearsay and not evidence. Those people claim that he confessed to them, but there is a lot more context. Here is what the linked story says about the "he confessed" part: > The investigation had gone cold until a jail inmate named Henry Cole, a man with a lengthy record, claimed that Mr. Williams confessed to him that he…

Someone who is incarcerated snitching on someone who’s in there with them just screams “give me your cupcake or I’m gonna tell the cops you confessed to me”. Williams was also a person who was black and Muslim so prejudice alone could have been a motivation

Right, these types of hearsay are only useful if they can lead investigators to more evidence that is actually supported by a solid source/chain-of-legitimacy. So it can be valuable but probably shouldn’t be submersible to court or at least the defense should really be able to lay into and tell the jury it is -highly- suspect.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#107

Post by EasyMark »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #102
voisin wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is that the girlfriend and jailhouse snitch both were looking to get the $10k reward money for his conviction. And that’s the only way the third point (had the items in the car) was known (from the girlfriend).

No, they knew the items were in the car because they searched his car and found the items. He has not, as far as I know, offered any alternative explanation of how he came into possession of a murder victim's random personal items.

This is exactly what I would focus on as a juror. How did he come by the items, surely if someone sold them to him he would say immediately who that was or offer some other way of getting it other than “I murdered her”

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#108

Post by EasyMark »

DoughnutHole wrote: post #67
game_the0ry wrote: post #55

Does anyone find it deeply disturbing that the justice system will just sit on its own hands when presented with new evidence? It seems like prosecutors are more interested in maintaining a hi conviction rate rather than seeking justice. Judges seem totally apathetic.

In this case the prosecutor actively pushed against the execution, arguing that his guilt was no longer beyond a reasonable doubt. The blame for this lies squarely on the Missouri Supreme Court and Gov. Parson (who has never once granted clemency in a capital case).

As well as the US Supreme Court

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#109

Post by knodi123 »

JeremyNT wrote: post #88
knodi123 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of evidence. He confessed to his girlfriend, and a cellmate. He pawned the victim's possessions. He was seen disposing of bloody clothes. He already had 15 felony convictions in addition to offenses related to Ms. Gayle's murder: robbery (2), armed criminal action (2), assault (2), burglary (4), stealing (3), stealing a motor vehicle, and unlawful use of a weapon. Now, as to whether this evidence is so…

> There's plenty of evidence. He confessed to his girlfriend, and a cellmate. Be careful, this is hearsay and not evidence. Those people claim that he confessed to them, but there is a lot more context. Here is what the linked story says about the "he confessed" part: > The investigation had gone cold until a jail inmate named Henry Cole, a man with a lengthy record, claimed that Mr. Williams confessed to him that he…

> Both of these individuals were known fabricators

Careful- it we're considering their history, then Mr Williams has a history of over a dozen counts of armed violence, burglary, robbery, and assault.

> this is hearsay and not evidence

Conflicting reports say that Asano provided verified information that had not been publicized. And Asano refused a cash reward for relaying the confessions she had heard. Regardless,

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3501

> Nothing contained in this section shall bar the admission in evidence of any confession made or given voluntarily by any person to any other person without interrogation by anyone, or at any time at which the person who made or gave such confession was not under arrest or other detention

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#110

Post by soerxpso »

JeremyNT wrote: post #88
knodi123 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of evidence. He confessed to his girlfriend, and a cellmate. He pawned the victim's possessions. He was seen disposing of bloody clothes. He already had 15 felony convictions in addition to offenses related to Ms. Gayle's murder: robbery (2), armed criminal action (2), assault (2), burglary (4), stealing (3), stealing a motor vehicle, and unlawful use of a weapon. Now, as to whether this evidence is so…

> There's plenty of evidence. He confessed to his girlfriend, and a cellmate. Be careful, this is hearsay and not evidence. Those people claim that he confessed to them, but there is a lot more context. Here is what the linked story says about the "he confessed" part: > The investigation had gone cold until a jail inmate named Henry Cole, a man with a lengthy record, claimed that Mr. Williams confessed to him that he…

> Be careful, this is hearsay and not evidence.

You're mistaken. There are many exceptions to the evidentiary rules against hearsay in the US, and one of the more common exceptions is a statement made by the opposing party (i.e. while the prosecution is questioning a witness, a statement made by the defendant to that witness) (Rule 801(d)(2)). It's evidence.

Your issues with the credibility of those witnesses are valid, and the defense had the opportunity to bring those issues up at trial (that's why we have jury trials and why you have a right to defend yourself at your jury trial). They certainly weren't the only pieces of evidence against him (there's a lot), and I'm sure the jury considered that.

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