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g1: Using Llama-3.1 70B on Groq to create o1-like reasoning chains

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Re: g1: Using Llama-3.1 70B on Groq to create o1-like reasoning chains

#101

i love seeing stuff like this, im guessing it wont be long until this method becomes the norm

This is basically CoT, so it's already the norm for a lot of benchmarks. I think the value proposition here is that it puts a nice UX around using it in a chat interface.

Its like saying geometry is just math. Proofs are just math.

They didn't train a model for millions from experts to just basically use CoT now. Thats a harsh simplification, probably.

Re: g1: Using Llama-3.1 70B on Groq to create o1-like reasoning chains

#102

This is not even remotely close and very silly. A ChainOfThought in a loop. TreeOfThoughts is a more sophisticated method, see - https://arxiv.org/pdf/2305.10601 The clue we all had with OpenAI for a long time that this was a search through a tree, they hired Noam Brown, and his past work all hinted towards that. Q , is obviously a search on a tree like A . So take something like CoT, build out a tree, search for the…

OAI revealed on Twitter that there is no "system" at inference time, this is just a model. Did they maybe expand to a tree during training to learn more robust reasoning? Maybe. But it still comes down to a regular transformer model at inference time.

Quiet-STaR: Language Models Can Teach Themselves to Think Before Speaking

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2403.09629

> In the Self-Taught Reasoner (STaR, Zelikman et al. 2022), useful thinking is learned by inferring rationales from few-shot examples in question-answering and learning from those that lead to a correct answer. This is a highly constrained setting – ideally, a language model could instead learn to infer unstated rationales in arbitrary text. We present Quiet-STaR, a generalization of STaR in which LMs learn to generate rationales at each token to explain future text, improving their predictions.

>[...]

>We generate thoughts, in parallel, following all tokens in the text (think). The model produces a mixture of its next-token predictions with and without a thought (talk). We apply REINFORCE, as in STaR, to increase the likelihood of thoughts that help the model predict future text while discarding thoughts that make the future text less likely (learn).

Re: g1: Using Llama-3.1 70B on Groq to create o1-like reasoning chains

#103
post #32

o1’s innovation is not Chain-of-Thought. It’s teaching the model to do CoT well (from massive amounts of human feedback) instead of just pretending to. You’ll never get o1 performance just from prompt engineering.

Do you actually know that’s what’s happening? The details are extremely fickle the last I read (a couple days ago). For all we know, they are doing model routing and prompt engineering to get o1 to work.

Re: g1: Using Llama-3.1 70B on Groq to create o1-like reasoning chains

#104
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far it seems to be a disadvantage as DeepMind has fallen behind OpenAI, despite their size, and to some extent even behind Anthropic.

They feel behind because they didn't have the smart guy with a new idea a few years back, and HE decided to work at a place which started as open. Playing catch up and trying to attract talent from the hot-new-thing OpenAI requires incentives beyond lots of money. I contend actually being open helps. I'm sure that's one reason Facebook has an open source model, scientists can care about ethics and could be attracted…

> They feel behind because they didn't have the smart guy with a new idea a few years back, and HE decided to work at a place which started as open.

The "Attention Is All You Need" guys all worked at Google. Google is where they are despite having the smart guys with a new idea a few years back.

Of course, IMHO it wouldn't have have helped Google if they'd kept the transformer architecture secret. They'd have fumbled it because they didn't realise what they had.

Re: g1: Using Llama-3.1 70B on Groq to create o1-like reasoning chains

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should also try phi-3-small 7B, seems much better at reasoning according to https://livebench.ai

I just tried it with phi3.5:3.8b-mini-instruct-fp16 - it didn't work with the base question, though interestingly the reasoning decided that strawberry was spelt s-t-r-a-w-b-e-r - which explains why the AIs have such a hard time with this question. I also tried it with my current favourite programming question too - What programming language is this whole line of code using? `def obfuscated_fibonacci(x)` - and like a…

Maybe we could improve it more by combining it with embeddings?

It’s a way to convert a text or response into an array of numbers, that can be used for similarity lookups.

I made a way to query large datasets of text strings: https://github.com/punnerud/search-embeddings-llama3.1

Can be used to let it explore a graph of knowledge as long as the graph is related to the original question, and can explore different solutions at the same time without repeating itself (then it’s get linked back to similar answers and stopped)

Re: g1: Using Llama-3.1 70B on Groq to create o1-like reasoning chains

#107

How does this benchmark against Reflection, which was fine-tuned to do the same thing-- provide a detailed Chain of Thought with self-corrections, then write out a final answer?

You still believe it was real? They had a model then they said it couldn’t reproduce those results lmao

Re: g1: Using Llama-3.1 70B on Groq to create o1-like reasoning chains

#108

This is not even remotely close and very silly. A ChainOfThought in a loop. TreeOfThoughts is a more sophisticated method, see - https://arxiv.org/pdf/2305.10601 The clue we all had with OpenAI for a long time that this was a search through a tree, they hired Noam Brown, and his past work all hinted towards that. Q , is obviously a search on a tree like A . So take something like CoT, build out a tree, search for the…

OAI revealed on Twitter that there is no "system" at inference time, this is just a model. Did they maybe expand to a tree during training to learn more robust reasoning? Maybe. But it still comes down to a regular transformer model at inference time.

I don't think you can claim you know what's happening internally when OpenAI processes a request. They are a competitive company and will lie for competitive reasons. Most people think Q-Star is doing multiple inferences to accomplish a single task, and that's what all the evidence suggests. Whatever Sam Altman says means absolutely nothing, but I don't think he's claimed they use only a single inference either.

Re: g1: Using Llama-3.1 70B on Groq to create o1-like reasoning chains

#110
post #32

o1’s innovation is not Chain-of-Thought. It’s teaching the model to do CoT well (from massive amounts of human feedback) instead of just pretending to. You’ll never get o1 performance just from prompt engineering.

OpenAI is of course going to claim what they've done is very special and hard to replicate. They're a for-profit company and they want to harm the competition any way they can.

If they were just doing prompt engineering and multiple inferences they'd definitely want to keep that a competitive secret and send all the open source devs off in random directions, or keep them guessing, rather than telling them which way to go to replicate Q-Star.

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