Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

There is no talent shortage

apaitch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–106 of 106 posts

Re: There is no talent shortage

#101

Post by einhverfr »

coryl wrote: post #89
einhverfr wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with you here. There are some areas where I am quite frankly talented. Once I get Perl coding on accounting software, there is very little that can stop me and quite frankly I can outperform nearly any programmer I have ever worked with. On the other hand, there are also things which I cannot do very well no matter how hard I try. When I was in college for example I used to be able to help struggling stude…

That isn't what natural talent is supposed to be though. You're good at programming Perl probably because you've practiced more, or you care more and thus have thought about it more. Software writing is a skill which you have honed by practice, not naturality. I don't know why you can't score A's at math though. It makes no sense to me as to why you can help others get good grades but can't get good grades yourself.…

One thing is I have ADD. I run into mental blocks sometimes and can't get started on some things. Or I make transposition errors. These occur in times and places that make no logical sense. Analytical geometry, but only to a lesser extent in trig, and not so much in calculus. Similarly in chemistry, subatomic orbitals are fine but molecular orbitals, which are conceptually simpler, are not.

Similarly in chemistry lab, I could help anyone else but I would invariably run all the right tests on all the wrong samples. This made me a great lab partner but a disaster on my own.

As I have gotten older I have learned coping mechanisms but some things I can't do and I pass those onto others.

At the same time I have always been top of my class in many things, while putting in quite a bit less effort than average. These ranged from history to some of the sciences, to some cases of math (calculus, some algebra).

Re: There is no talent shortage

#102

Post by hpatel »

einhverfr wrote: post #99
hpatel wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, you are right. Attitude is key to becoming a) (along with a basic level of aptitude, obviously). And, few people have the necessary self awareness. Attitude is exactly what companies look for when they hire people with less experience. Even for more advanced programmers in a sense it is essential because you never stop learning. This is why there is some bias towards younger people as they are supposed to be mor…

I would say it is at least as essential for advanced programmers. I have worked with a lot of programmers and I find you can basically throw advanced programmers into three groups: 1) Those who think about and figure out how to write maintainable code (these are a small minority btw!) 2) Those who believe that writing maintainable code is a matter of following coding conventions they are comfortable with, and 3) Thos…

My experience has shown that there is one more category - #1(creates frameworks) + #3(gets stuff done). In early stage startups, this is the kind of person you want. In big companies, usually #1 types are ideal.

Regardless, it does suck to have to maintain/extend apps written by #3.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#103

Post by geebee »

wmil wrote: post #100
geebee wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is some shortage of programmers of any but minimal competence I think our industry sets a high bar for "minimal competence". It isn't fizzbuzz. I went to an interview where I was asked to write, on the whiteboard, a recursive solution to the problem of printing all possible permutations of a string. I blew it, and of course I went home and worked on it a bit and solved it (the way I usually program, try it a bi…

Actually some schools are facing class action lawsuits for inflating reported JD salaries and placement rates. But Biglaw/MBA Consulting pay so much because the firms are oligopolies with gentlemen's agreements not to compete on price. That's not going to happen in a field with mesurable results.

I've heard about these lawsuits, and I don't doubt that there is some inflation of job placement data. However, these accusations tend to happen more at the mid-rated schools, and we are talking about the "elite" here (ie., top 5 or so).

While there does seem to be some basis for questioning the data, I do think that the employment reports support the notion that the average starting salary for someone out of a "Top 5" law school greatly exceeds the pay for an MS or PhD grad of a top engineering school.

Is this something you'd disagree with? - ie., do you think that the job placement reports from the various grad schools at UC Berkeley and other top institutions are so unreliable that we can't draw general conclusions from the numbers?

I also completely agree with you about biglaw and consulting. Law actually does resemble a cartel in many ways, and oligopolies certainly exist in consulting and drive up pay. But to me, that's beside the point. If smart people can make gobs of money in other fields (never mind why, the important thing is that they can), why should we be surprised that they won't become programmers for 80K a year?

Re: There is no talent shortage

#104

Post by thedufer »

apaitch wrote: post #11
thedufer wrote: post #7

The difference in these scenarios isn't really luck; sure, Norman has a bit of a head start. But John shows almost no interest. He picked a major, but that's about it. "Talent" may not mean exactly what people are talking about in this context, since interest in coding and a desire to learn about computers are just as important as natural ability. You can't say that the person who just goes to class is going to do as…

What happens once a person encounters programming is a different story. I tried, with seemingly mixed success, to portray Jon as someone who is indeed interested in coding - enough to try stuff on his own, and certainly not on a "just to get by" basis - but who did not discover this interest until he picked his major (arbitrarily, perhaps) and actually tried it. Adjusted for age difference, Jon is about as excited ab…

I'd disagree, mostly because I know a "Jon" who was actually interested in programming, and he's gone pretty far already (we graduated a month ago). Despite my 7-8 year head start, we're in pretty similar positions.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#105

Post by thedufer »

artmageddon wrote: post #92
zithtar wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to hear the arguments for doing $11/hr programming jobs instead of just getting downvoted.

While I felt compelled to downvote you, I won't since you ask nicely. You should explain how it doesn't speak well for his judgment. Doing translation work isn't the same as programming on the pay scale, and any respectable employer should realize that when it comes time to discuss compensation for a programming position. In fact, I feel it speaks highly of his character in that A) he's motivated enough to continue w…

You may have missed the "similarly priced rails work" part. I did on my first read.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#106

Post by bandy »

antidoh wrote: post #97
bandy wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I hope any HR people who have had your resume cross their desk are sweating at the thought of age discrimination scrutiny. Did Glinda flit in from Oz and wave her magic wand, correcting the past two generations' worth of age discrimination problems in the Valley? Did the EEOC's jack-booted thugs suddenly start raiding offices last week and I didn't read about it in the Murky News? >It may be there's a shortage of HR…

I said talent, not bodies.

HR defines talent as certificates and diplomas.
Post reply on HN