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Programming Zero Knowledge Proofs: From Zero to Hero

zkintro.com

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Re: Programming Zero Knowledge Proofs: From Zero to Hero

#101

Post by gembeMx »

cyberax wrote: post #91
eru wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are useful from a mathematical point of view. (And explore the relationship between P and NP, for example.) Not sure if that counts as a 'real use' to you. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCP_theorem At the moment, producing a zero knowledge proof has roughly a million-fold overhead compared to running a program directly. So there aren't many applications where that's acceptable. So I am very grateful tha…

Again, this is exactly the cryptocrap-derived nonsense I meant. "Goldman Sachs could..." but they do NOT. Like they don't use blockcrap for interbank settlements, asset tracking, notary, etc. So basically, no actual uses so far. And it's not even clear _why_ I would want to use ZKP.

[dead]

Re: Programming Zero Knowledge Proofs: From Zero to Hero

#102

Post by numtel »

melvinzzz wrote: post #92
numtel wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Risc Zero runs at about 500hz on high-end desktop hardware. They're working on speed ups though. (Source: their presentation in Brussels in July)

That was 500 KHz, and the latest versions are at 1MHz, so still 1000 times slower than a 1Ghz machine, but it’s easy to parallelize the workload, so it’s really mostly a cost of computation issue.

Ah thanks, that's what I meant

Re: Programming Zero Knowledge Proofs: From Zero to Hero

#103

Post by kikimora »

bschmidt1 wrote: post #94

I wrote ZKPs off as hype ~2 years ago - is it a legit concept outside blockchain marketing? Someone help me understand how it's different from hashes and access tokens? > "Zero-knowledge proofs (ZKPs) are a method for one party to cryptographically prove to another that they possess knowledge about a piece of information without revealing the actual underlying information." So, like this? 1. An app needs to confirm a…

No, this is more like this. Here is my ZKP to verify you are older than 18. Please pass it your ID card and give me result. I’ll verify result and prove you are above 18. On top of that the proof output would contain your photo from the document so I can visually compare it with your face.

In the end all I know is you are older than 18. I don’t know your driver license number or SSN, I don’t know your name. I know nothing but the fact that your are older than 18.

Re: Programming Zero Knowledge Proofs: From Zero to Hero

#104

Post by kikimora »

zero_k wrote: post #62

If you wanna do it in a flexible way that is very easy to use and essentially the future of ZK, use Powdr [1]. Just write your code in rust nostd and be done with it. It's a compiler, basically. Once you use it, you'll never go back to hand-massaging polynomials. It'd be like writing assembly. Sure, some can do it, and it can be fun, but why do it if there are compilers out there to do the heavy lifting for you? :) […

How about verification speed? The article mentions that avoiding trusted setup would result is sliver verification speed. Could it also increase proof size?

Re: Programming Zero Knowledge Proofs: From Zero to Hero

#105

Post by cyberax »

knowaveragejoe wrote: post #100
cyberax wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes.

This must be a mistake or misunderstanding, because "blockcrap" is hardly mentioned in contrast with examples like confirming someone is of age, meets certain insurance requirements or has certain financial status without revealing anything about them. No blockchain is needed in any of these examples.

Part of growing up means realizing that cryptocrap is cryptocrap.

> examples like confirming someone is of age

When where are the companies that do that? Can I replace my Washington driving license with a ZKP that I can show to police officers or to enter a pub?

There are really no practical examples of the actual usages. Just hand-waving. And moreover, all the examples you provided make no sense. They are far better achieved using classic asymmetric systems.

Re: Programming Zero Knowledge Proofs: From Zero to Hero

#106

Post by kikimora »

bschmidt1 wrote: post #96
cyberax wrote: post #17

Are there any real uses of ZKP outside of blockcrap?

Any time I get someone to explain a real world use case they explain the concept of password hashing. Also, the only people who ever talk about "ZKPs" are these obviously non-technical crypto founders - it's possible they think it's a new thing when it's something we deal with everyday as developers. I can't get anyone to explain how it's different than a password hash other than in these elaborate hypothetical scena…

Instead of asking your id police office pass you a circuit. You present your ID to the circuit and pass results to the officer. The officer then verifies you are not a criminal without ever looking at your documents.

Re: Programming Zero Knowledge Proofs: From Zero to Hero

#107

Post by knowaveragejoe »

cyberax wrote: post #105
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This must be a mistake or misunderstanding, because "blockcrap" is hardly mentioned in contrast with examples like confirming someone is of age, meets certain insurance requirements or has certain financial status without revealing anything about them. No blockchain is needed in any of these examples.

Part of growing up means realizing that cryptocrap is cryptocrap. > examples like confirming someone is of age When where are the companies that do that? Can I replace my Washington driving license with a ZKP that I can show to police officers or to enter a pub? There are really no practical examples of the actual usages. Just hand-waving. And moreover, all the examples you provided make no sense. They are far better…

> Part of growing up

On the contrary, your sentiment reads less like wisdom and more like hardheadedness. I am glad there are plenty of others here who do not share such a narrow-minded sentiment.

The venn-diagram between cryptocurrency and ZKPs is not a circle, or really even close. They're a mathematical concept first and foremost, and thanks to crypto dumping tons of money into the scaling problem, now much more easily worked with in code across any application. So much for all cryptocrap being, well, cryptocrap!

Your example is terribly contrived. No, you won't replace your drivers license with a ZKP. But a service might validate that you're of age, or meet some other criteria, without you(or they) revealing actual information about yourself.

All of the examples I gave(none of which are my own, but from other commenters who are I'm sure happy to discuss further) require the context of established trust. "Classic asymmetric systems" have problems with this.

Re: Programming Zero Knowledge Proofs: From Zero to Hero

#108

Post by cyberax »

kikimora wrote: post #106
bschmidt1 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any time I get someone to explain a real world use case they explain the concept of password hashing. Also, the only people who ever talk about "ZKPs" are these obviously non-technical crypto founders - it's possible they think it's a new thing when it's something we deal with everyday as developers. I can't get anyone to explain how it's different than a password hash other than in these elaborate hypothetical scena…

Instead of asking your id police office pass you a circuit. You present your ID to the circuit and pass results to the officer. The officer then verifies you are not a criminal without ever looking at your documents.

How will the circuit determine that you are actually you? How will it make a query to the police database to look for warrants?

Re: Programming Zero Knowledge Proofs: From Zero to Hero

#109

Post by cyberax »

knowaveragejoe wrote: post #107
cyberax wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of growing up means realizing that cryptocrap is cryptocrap. > examples like confirming someone is of age When where are the companies that do that? Can I replace my Washington driving license with a ZKP that I can show to police officers or to enter a pub? There are really no practical examples of the actual usages. Just hand-waving. And moreover, all the examples you provided make no sense. They are far better…

> Part of growing up On the contrary, your sentiment reads less like wisdom and more like hardheadedness. I am glad there are plenty of others here who do not share such a narrow-minded sentiment. The venn-diagram between cryptocurrency and ZKPs is not a circle, or really even close. They're a mathematical concept first and foremost, and thanks to crypto dumping tons of money into the scaling problem, now much more e…

Can you show me ANY actual practical use for cryptocrap outside of illegal transactions?

Like: "Company XYZ uses ABC to provide asset tracking, and it's now used by 99% of the DEF sector".

> The venn-diagram between cryptocurrency and ZKPs is not a circle, or really even close.

Then it should be treated as such, instead of trying to claim that it has practical applications.

Re: Programming Zero Knowledge Proofs: From Zero to Hero

#110

Post by bschmidt1 »

kikimora wrote: post #103
bschmidt1 wrote: post #94

I wrote ZKPs off as hype ~2 years ago - is it a legit concept outside blockchain marketing? Someone help me understand how it's different from hashes and access tokens? > "Zero-knowledge proofs (ZKPs) are a method for one party to cryptographically prove to another that they possess knowledge about a piece of information without revealing the actual underlying information." So, like this? 1. An app needs to confirm a…

No, this is more like this. Here is my ZKP to verify you are older than 18. Please pass it your ID card and give me result. I’ll verify result and prove you are above 18. On top of that the proof output would contain your photo from the document so I can visually compare it with your face. In the end all I know is you are older than 18. I don’t know your driver license number or SSN, I don’t know your name. I know no…

Same thing. In my example the function only knows whether the provided hash equals the one on file. Yours is essentially the same - is the provided DOB This is also accomplished by just properly scoping the function. Considering the widespread availability of solutions to this well-known* problem, I wonder why anyone would "use ZKPs" - and what does that even mean? What npm should I install - and why?

* where my ACME Challenge fans at

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