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Julian Assange Seeks Asylum In Ecuador Embassy

ecuadorembassyuk.org.uk

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Re: Julian Assange Seeks Asylum In Ecuador Embassy

#101

Post by molmalo »

ForrestN wrote: post #85
crazygringo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would disagree, and say it's usually negative -- the idea that you win short-term approval for a dubious policy by appealing to the masses who are ignorant of the true consequences, as opposed to appealing to the elites who would presumably understand that the thing's a bad idea. For example, promising to cut the gasoline tax would be a very populist tactic -- people think "I pay less for gas, that's great!", where…

Well, it's true that elites may see populism with some suspicion, and may convey that to each other. But if you turn on Hardball (famous political TV program), many elites and many not-so-elites, depending on your vantage, might be urging Obama, say, to take a more populist tack in his campaign. It's usually neutral, one side of a spectrum people have diverse opinions about. For example, I don't often feel like angri…

Just call him demagogue ;) . Read what I wrote above :P Too long to repeat.

Re: Julian Assange Seeks Asylum In Ecuador Embassy

#102

Post by ggchappell »

objclxt wrote: post #57
rickmb wrote: post #47

Seems to me Assange isn't so much afraid of being extradited to US (there is a truckload of ways to fight that if it ever comes to that) but of actually being convicted in Sweden. The Piratebay trials have shown how corrupted the Swedish justice system can be, with both police, prosecution and judges having proven private connections with the copyright industry (which in itself is not only organized and financed by t…

It depresses me that people are trying to make comparisons between a copyright infringement case and a rape accusation. Copyright infringement and rape are rather different. This should be obvious. I really don't know where to begin there - I know this community is male dominated, but rape is a incredibly serious crime. Piracy may well be a 'victimless crime'. Rape is not. Two women have accused Assange of rape. They…

> Two women have accused Assange of rape. They have a fundamental right under law to due process. Assange is attempting to deny them this due process by evading the Swedish courts.

Where did this come from? Due process is a right of the accused. I've never heard of accusers having due process rights. After all, anyone can accuse anyone of anything. And prosecutors can just roll their eyes at them, if they want.

Just to be clear: I'm not saying that the accusations against JA are worth an eye-roll; I'm only questioning your assertion about due-process rights for accusers.

Also, I'm generally familiar with U.S. law, less so with English law, and very much less so with Swedish.

Re: Julian Assange Seeks Asylum In Ecuador Embassy

#103

Post by tptacek »

analog wrote: post #95
tptacek wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? You back his politics one hundred percent? "Julian was very reluctant to delete those names, to redact them." David Leigh of the Guardian newspaper tells FRONTLINE of meetings he attended with Assange in the run-up to publication of the war logs. "And we said: 'Julian, we've got to do something about these redactions. We really have got to.' And he said: 'These people were collaborators, informants. They dese…

That quote has been denied by Wikileaks, and apparently also by two Spiegel journalists. [1] The Guardian and David Leigh in particular do seem to have issues with Assange. Personally I wouldn't automatically believe something to be true just because it was in The Guardian. [1] "Gives Julian Assange no right to reply libelous statements such as "Afghan informers deserve to die". Nick Davies was not present at the con…

Sorry, but I think your perspective is less tenable than mine.

"We did talk with others about David Leigh’s allegation. Several people confirmed that you had initially wanted to publish all the Afghan War Logs without redacting names. We also allowed you to deny the charge. As for content sales, you mentioned in your interview that you had explored financial incentives to improve the reception of the Collateral Murder video. There is more about this in the transcript of your interview that is published on Frontline's website."

That's Marcela Gaviria, a veteran PBS FRONTLINE producer. So that's The Guardian and PBS FRONTLINE --- both extraordinarily reputable newsgathering organizations, and both thoroughly on the liberal side of the spectrum with regards to conflict reporting.

Against that, you have Julian Assange's word and the fact that two Der Spiegel reporters apparently didn't add Assange's statement to their notes.

I tried to track down a denial from John Goertz or Holger Stark; maybe you could point me to one? Leigh's made a bombshell claim. If Der Spiegel reporters are calling into question, it shouldn't be hard to find!

I believe The Guardian and PBS FRONTLINE.

Re: Julian Assange Seeks Asylum In Ecuador Embassy

#104

Post by rickmb »

roguecoder wrote: post #100
mathetic wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depresses me that people are commenting on the issue without actually knowing what the investigation in Sweden is about. I might be wrong but there is a slight difference between not wearing a condom and rape. I don't care if Sweden is calling consensual sex without condom rape. In Assange's case, he allegedly sabotaged his condom with one woman and allegedly refused to wear a condom with another one but he did no…

Except that Assange said he did exactly what they said he did: http://studentactivism.net/2011/07/12/assange-lawyer-concede... This isn't even a case of he-said-she-said; I don't know where the fanatical skepticism is coming from. It's not called rape in Sweden either, it is sexual misconduct. It is a crime. Even in countries where it is not a crime, it is still a terrible thing to do. I can support WikiLeaks and als…

Wow, that is a ridiculously suggestive hit piece you're linking to, but even that doesn't justify your claim, since even in that piece neither Assange (who isn't even quoted in it) nor his lawyer says anything of the kind.

It's merely his lawyer quoting the accusations, and the author trying to twist this into an admission of guilt because of, OMG, "the tone". And then there's you piling it on claiming it was Assange who said it, which is a complete fabrication, at least if you take that link as "evidence".

If you want to know where the skepticism is coming from: it comes from these kind of filthy propaganda tactics.

Re: Julian Assange Seeks Asylum In Ecuador Embassy

#105

Post by anthonyb »

planetguy wrote: post #74
xefer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a feeling he'll be "couch surfing" from embassy to embassy to delay the extradition as long as possible.

I'm confused by the embassy's statement. Is an embassy really obliged to shelter any foreign national who might show up on the run from the law for a fairly prosaic [ ahem alleged] crime? If I knock over a gas station can I show up at the Tanzanian embassy, say "Hi, I'm a political refugee" and hang around for long enough for them to process this claim?

I think the circumstances around the case make it anything but prosaic.

Re: Julian Assange Seeks Asylum In Ecuador Embassy

#106

Post by Muzza »

objclxt wrote: post #51
wvenable wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assange stayed in Sweden for 5 weeks to be interrogated and only left Sweden after asking permission to do so from the Swedish Prosecutor. Saying this is all about avoid accusations of sexual assault seems to contradict the actual facts.

And now they would like him back to ask some more questions. Assange cannot have his cake and eat it. It is somewhat hypocritical for Assange to seek asylum on the grounds of human rights whilst denying the women who are accusing him of obtaining due process through the law (most countries agree that due process is in itself a fundamental right).

> Assange cannot have his cake and eat it. It is somewhat hypocritical for Assange to seek asylum on the grounds of human rights whilst denying the women who are accusing him of obtaining due process through the law (most countries agree that due process is in itself a fundamental right).

Not if the law which he is accused of breaking is fucked up (to say the least).

Re: Julian Assange Seeks Asylum In Ecuador Embassy

#107

Post by analog »

tptacek wrote: post #103
analog wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That quote has been denied by Wikileaks, and apparently also by two Spiegel journalists. [1] The Guardian and David Leigh in particular do seem to have issues with Assange. Personally I wouldn't automatically believe something to be true just because it was in The Guardian. [1] "Gives Julian Assange no right to reply libelous statements such as "Afghan informers deserve to die". Nick Davies was not present at the con…

Sorry, but I think your perspective is less tenable than mine. "We did talk with others about David Leigh’s allegation. Several people confirmed that you had initially wanted to publish all the Afghan War Logs without redacting names. We also allowed you to deny the charge. As for content sales, you mentioned in your interview that you had explored financial incentives to improve the reception of the Collateral Murde…

I don't have a perspective here. Marcela Gaviria does not confirm the quote attributed to Assange, as she could not because she was not there.

I did also look for a denial from Goertz or Stark, I couldn't find one either. They do have a book, perhaps there is more detail there.

The "they deserve to die" quote is very damaging, and quite frankly probably the kind of thing a journalist would remember, and perhaps even report. You could conversely say that Goertz or Stark should confirm this if it's true. I couldn't find any evidence of this.

Re: Julian Assange Seeks Asylum In Ecuador Embassy

#108

Post by [deleted] »

cyrus_ wrote: post #89
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is not being charged with rape. He is being charged with intentionally tearing a condom during consensual intercourse. It's pretty offensive to compare this with rape, imo.

Actually, he's not being charged with anything yet. The warrant is simply to require him to come to Sweden for questioning, after which time the prosecutor will decide whether to charge him with any crime. At the moment, he has only been accused of a crime. Also, it is my understanding that the accusation was brought by the police officers after reading the statements given by the women in question. They had only com…

[deleted]

Re: Julian Assange Seeks Asylum In Ecuador Embassy

#109

Post by mcpie »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #87
objclxt wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depresses me that people are trying to make comparisons between a copyright infringement case and a rape accusation. Copyright infringement and rape are rather different. This should be obvious. I really don't know where to begin there - I know this community is male dominated, but rape is a incredibly serious crime. Piracy may well be a 'victimless crime'. Rape is not. Two women have accused Assange of rape. They…

He is not being charged with rape. He is being charged with intentionally tearing a condom during consensual intercourse. It's pretty offensive to compare this with rape, imo.

That is actually quite clearly defined as rape in Swedish law: 'Causing helplessness or a similar state of incapacitation shall be regarded as equivalent to violence.'

http://www.sweden.gov.se/content/1/c6/02/77/77/cb79a8a3.pdf (page 24, sorry for pdf link)

Re: Julian Assange Seeks Asylum In Ecuador Embassy

#110

Post by epo »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #87
objclxt wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depresses me that people are trying to make comparisons between a copyright infringement case and a rape accusation. Copyright infringement and rape are rather different. This should be obvious. I really don't know where to begin there - I know this community is male dominated, but rape is a incredibly serious crime. Piracy may well be a 'victimless crime'. Rape is not. Two women have accused Assange of rape. They…

He is not being charged with rape. He is being charged with intentionally tearing a condom during consensual intercourse. It's pretty offensive to compare this with rape, imo.

The questioning relates to exposing a woman to bodily fluids against her will, creating in her the risk of disease or unwanted pregnancy.

She may have agreed to sex given certain conditions, he (allegedly) wilfully broke those conditions. There may or may not have been coercion involved but rape is a good shorthand description and there are serious questions to answer and serious charges to be laid if he cannot provide good answers.

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