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Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

pv-tech.org

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Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#101
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? When will it be cheaper to deploy in space than in some remote area somewhere? When land becomes the limiting factor on earth.

Land will never become the limiting factor on earth, at least not for solar power. Assuming the worst-case predictions of climate change come true, there will be more than enough desert capacity along the equatorial areas to provide power for the rest.

> Land will never become the limiting factor on earth, at least not for solar power.

What makes you think so? There's always more you can do with more energy. 'Never' is a long time. And there are opportunity costs from other uses you could put land on earth to.

You are right that it will be a while before remote corners on earth become more expensive than space for solar power generation. But not 'never'.

(Btw, if you think really big, the limit for how much power we can use on earth is given by how much waste heat we can radiate into space.

At some point, you don't want to keep beaming down energy from space into earth, even if you somehow could convert 100% of the received power into electricity with no losses: because at the end all the electrical power used will still turn into heat. Heat that we will have to get rid of.

At that point in time, you might want to use the electricity directly in space, eg to run data centres there, and just beam the results of the computations down.)

> Assuming the worst-case predictions of climate change come true, there will be more than enough desert capacity along the equatorial areas to provide power for the rest.

While climate change might become unpleasant, I have no clue what it has to do with any of this? The surface of the earth will stay roughly constant and so will its orbit, and the sun will shine regardless of what happens on earth. (And I assume that if you wanted to badly enough, you could easily float solar panels on top of the ocean; at least easier than blasting them into space.)

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#102
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure someone will figure out how to make a working solar sail that captures energy and beams it to earth via microwaves. Please enough of them far away from Earth and you get pretty much unlimited energy all year round.

You get the same if you place solar panels in places around the equator, without all the messiness of orbital repairs and GW death rays. I can't see this being cheaper than just some panels on the ground.

Why would you want to do orbital repairs? For the amount of effort required, you'd just send up a replacement.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#103
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? When will it be cheaper to deploy in space than in some remote area somewhere?

I'm pretty sure someone will figure out how to make a working solar sail that captures energy and beams it to earth via microwaves. Please enough of them far away from Earth and you get pretty much unlimited energy all year round.

Eventually, the limiting factor will be how to get rid of the waste heat.

Even if you can turn 100% of the energy you received from space into electricity, in the end it'll all turn to heat.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#104
post #95
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All while Australian's themselves pay astronomical prices for power

Surely solar panels are affordable with typical Australian household incomes? And much more effective even in southern Tasmania at 45°S as compared to southern Finland at 60°N (where they're apparently cost-effective since they're building solar farms). If they feel their electricity provider is screwing with them, why not make their own? Probably even with batteries it would pay for itself given the ROI I'd guess pa…

Australia is quite good with residential rooftop solar. Last time I heard about payback times this was under 3 years for a 10 kW system.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#105
post #102
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get the same if you place solar panels in places around the equator, without all the messiness of orbital repairs and GW death rays. I can't see this being cheaper than just some panels on the ground.

Why would you want to do orbital repairs? For the amount of effort required, you'd just send up a replacement.

And we're saying that deploying new solar sails (with integrated power transmitters) to orbit is cheaper than replacing a solar panel on earth?

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#106
post #92
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they also have zero room left so I guess the option was between more dirty power stations in Malaysia or this. Seems like a wise, forward-looking initiative.

Singapore has plenty of room left, and we are making more via land reclamation. The question is just one of opportunity costs: what else could you do with the land?

I'm pretty ignorant about Singapore, but... I get the impression it's quite small. Wikipedia says 750 sq km.

The solar farm powering this Suncable project is 12,000 hectares, or 120 sq km. So the solar farm is 1/6th the size of Singapore. Although Singapore is only planning to buy around 1/3rd of the capacity, so maybe this'd be equivalent to only 40 sq km, or 1/20th the size of Singapore.

I suspect there are more profitable uses to the Singapore economy for land reclamation than dropping solar panels on it?

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#107

Does it actually make economic sense to run a cable large enough for that kind of power from Australia to Singapore? I would have guessed there must be enough domestic customers or in Indonesia that would make more sense.

Not really? The company behind this, SunCable, has some history:

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/billionaire-cannon-b...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-11/sun-cable-enters-admi...

I guess MCB found a way to make it work pending future investment that may not occur until 2027: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-21/suncable-receives-env...

> The approval paves the way for the next phase of development to deliver industrial-scale electricity to customers. But it still has some way to go, with a final investment decision not expected until 2027.

and

> However, SunCable still needs to negotiate Indigenous land use agreements with a number of different traditional owner groups along the transmission line route to Darwin.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#108
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edge of its exclusive zone is still 200 miles away from its coastline. That’s no joke though it only about 10% of the way to Singapore.

Realistically the first big sell is Indonesia. No cable to Singapore will make sense but it transits Indonesian waters and you would think a willing buyer and seller is there. Shorter path so less transmission losses.

From the article: "It is worth noting that the project received approval from Indonesian authorities in 2021."

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#109
post #8
post #3

How much copper would you need for a 4,300km 2GW subsea cable?

Aluminium is almost as good by cross section, much cheaper, and the global (mainly Chinese) production is sufficient for a global (40 megameter) multi-terrawatt power grid every 18 months or so. And yes, I did do the maths; and also yes it's really just China at the "global terrawatt" scale (they've become a dominant aluminium supplier), but a much smaller distance and power rating is probably fine even if China does…

Interestingly, Australia is amongst the world's biggest exporters of Bauxite, which pretty much just needs electricity to turn it into Aluminium.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#110

Does it actually make economic sense to run a cable large enough for that kind of power from Australia to Singapore? I would have guessed there must be enough domestic customers or in Indonesia that would make more sense.

Power cables are getting cheaper and cheaper. The expensive part used to be the voltage conversion stations at the ends, but with mass production of MOSFETs for EV's these have now become far cheaper than the JFET's and other exotic silicon that used to be used. In turn, that means voltages can be higher, letting one use more of the cheaper PVC or XLPE insulating material and less expensive aluminium for the same amo…

Would they be using AC or DC? I heard that very long cables using AC can be more lossy
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