Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Robot dentist performs first human procedure

newatlas.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 381 posts

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#101

Post by ChumpGPT »

whimsicalism wrote: post #4

It’s going to become increasingly apparent in the US over time the degree to which doctors & the regulatory state are blocking us from getting cheap new care. Already ML algos are more accurate at diagnosing melanomas from an image than dermatologists - but we will never get that tech because doctors are fiercely protective of their salaries and have captured the arm of the state to help them do so.

I know very little about the regulatory system but, what is stopping an app to scan your skin via mobile camera to try and determine melanoma. As long as there is a disclaimer to see your physician and this is not medical advice. It would be the same as taking your blood pressure or blood sugar test at home.

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#102

Post by whimsicalism »

rscho wrote: post #58
pegasus wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you're right, and would be interested to hear more.

In a nutshell, no amount of lobbying will stop equivalent service for 100x cheaper. Tech does not permeate healthcare for 2 reasons: 1. mostly inapplicable. Everyone is focusing on ML model performance, but really information retrieval in healthcare is dismal and prevents the use of such new tech altogether except in very niche cases. 2. no integration in the workplace. Tech people and docs don't understand each othe…

If there are algos out there (and there are) that can accurately provide a strong heuristic on melanoma from a photo and this is being blocked by the state - that seems like an obvious instance of regulatory apparatus stopping an equivalent 100x+ cheaper service.

I've discussed with a number of people who work directly on DL for imaging at a major hospital system in Boston. They say that (outside of the doctors they work directly with) fear over competition and losing out on the pricier billings are one of the largest barriers to getting their (very accurate) tech deployed more widely.

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#103

Post by whimsicalism »

robertlagrant wrote: post #86
rscho wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a nutshell, no amount of lobbying will stop equivalent service for 100x cheaper. Tech does not permeate healthcare for 2 reasons: 1. mostly inapplicable. Everyone is focusing on ML model performance, but really information retrieval in healthcare is dismal and prevents the use of such new tech altogether except in very niche cases. 2. no integration in the workplace. Tech people and docs don't understand each othe…

Me and my team made a piece of successful software for patients and clinicians. It is really difficult, mostly for the reasons you state, but it is possible. It's used in about half the NHS, and I personally know three people who've used our app to successfully manage their pregnancy complication, which is great.

There is less political capture of this process in the UK.

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#104

Post by munificent »

tacocataco wrote: post #78
throw123011 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

We should all strive to automate what we can in a safe manner. The only reason it is seen as a bad thing is that the economic system coerced you into proving you deserve basic necessities.

This is a silly take.

I could probably automate hugging my children, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to.

We should try to build a world where people get to live with as much safety, dignity, meaning, and reward as we can. We should build a world where if people were given the choice between it and some other world with different parameters, they would choose the former.

Automation is a piece of that, but absolutely not an end goal. Often people are happiest when doing things that are not automated.

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#105

Post by [deleted] »

whimsicalism wrote: post #4

It’s going to become increasingly apparent in the US over time the degree to which doctors & the regulatory state are blocking us from getting cheap new care. Already ML algos are more accurate at diagnosing melanomas from an image than dermatologists - but we will never get that tech because doctors are fiercely protective of their salaries and have captured the arm of the state to help them do so.

[deleted]

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#106

Post by Rinzler89 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #68
wrs wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least this is actual CNC software using math and geometry that somebody can find the bugs in. What terrifies me is “software” that is really just black boxes filled with floating point numbers and no one knows how it works, or when it won’t.

IDK. Logically you are right, but humans are emotional. Just a day or so ago, here on HN, full of IT guys, there was a discussion about some Tesla autopilot crash. People were absolutely livid and demanded the impossible. Now - generic Musk hate might have something to do with it, but I suspect that it is not just Musk. We really react very unfavorably to machines wreaking havoc, while our tolerance for humans fessin…

Because we feel better when those humans can go to jail as a form of Justice since now that person gets to suffer in exchange for the suffering caused.

Meanwhile we don't feel anything if the robot that killed someone gets decommissioned because machines Don't suffer.

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#107

Post by vkou »

Scoundreller wrote: post #92
torginus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has 26.1 doctors per capita, while Germany has 42.5, which is a middle-of-the-road number for the developed West. Do you accept the criticism that the US simply artificially limits the supply of doctors, which leads to overwork for physicians, and worse health outcomes for patients? Do you think most doctors would take less hours for a somewhat lower salary if you it was possible?

The comparisons between countries is hard because roles, processes and existence of other practitioners will vary a ton. High doctor-per-capita could be a sign of inefficient use of resources rather than being a good thing. Examples: Do you need a prescription for stuff that's otherwise over-the-counter elsewhere? Is over-the-counter stuff paid by (state) insurance if you get a prescription for people that don't valu…

If we're going to talk about inefficient use of resources, maybe we could start with the education requirements. In the US and Canada, doctors spend years getting useless degrees before they are allowed into medical school.

In Europe, they somehow get through medical school without them.

(Not that any of this would matter because the incentives of the residency system are perfectly set up to make it impossible to train any more doctors.)

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#108

Post by whimsicalism »

rscho wrote: post #81
torginus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has 26.1 doctors per capita, while Germany has 42.5, which is a middle-of-the-road number for the developed West. Do you accept the criticism that the US simply artificially limits the supply of doctors, which leads to overwork for physicians, and worse health outcomes for patients? Do you think most doctors would take less hours for a somewhat lower salary if you it was possible?

All countries control rather strictly who can practice medicine. Yes, there is some amount of protectionism, but that happens almost everywhere. The reason is not only money, but also cultural issues. So yes, I expect that to be a valid criticism, but I don't think opening the floodgates would have the result you expect either. Access to care is a complex problem, and IMO not primarily limited by doc counts in the US…

> All countries control rather strictly who can practice medicine

To pretend that the restrictions in other countries like Germany are at all comparable to the restrictions in the US is laughable. Just look at the work involved for a German doctor to legally practice in the US vs the reverse if the controls are so similarly strict (they're obviously not).

You are very clearly engaging in motivated reasoning in this thread.

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#109

Post by munificent »

lovethevoid wrote: post #50
BobaFloutist wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But also going to the dentist already isn't exactly pleasant, the pokes, scrapes, drill noises, etc. Maybe we improve that first before sticking it in a robot? Dentists are definitely trying. The drills have gotten smaller and gentler, my dentist (and many others) offers a headset so you can listen to music/podcasts while getting your cleaning, and overall they make an effort to be less scoldy and more encouragey. T…

There are a lot of fields like this, where they have mostly been reduced to refinements but ultimately are still very barbaric procedures. All we've done is upgrade the stick (in this case, a nice shiny pick), but the procedure hasn't changed much at all. Too much of dentistry is still stuck on instant fix solutions. Take hard metal, scrape teeth. Something wrong on inside, just drill into it scrape it out and fill i…

> ultimately are still very barbaric procedures.

At some point, you bottom out on the reality that we are all just big bags of meat and bones. No amount of technology or AI will change the fact that we are material objects who sometimes have problems with that composition and structure of that material.

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#110

Post by bornfreddy »

eppp wrote: post #85
pnut wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, doctors are some of the most highly compensated wage earners. Every working stiff at all income levels sacrifices disproportionately to their income, and if I were a high school teacher, I'd belly laugh at this doctor pity party.

Some doctors* The front line primary care doctors and nurse practitioners dont make as much as IT people quite often.

Some IT people*
Post reply on HN