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The Right Kind of Stubborn

paulgraham.com

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Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#101

Post by citizenpaul »

ableSprocket11 wrote: post #69
sitkack wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too like these Just So Stories of the Startup Underground, but damn, they come off like Malcolm Gladwell forming a taxonomy of the kids that got it vs the kids that don't. These are all properties of people, that ebb and flow and change from each problem they are working on. It is more productive to talk about contextualized behaviors over the properties of people.

Someone clearly failed the marshmallow test as a kid (/s) Yes, exactly. You put it better than I did. Shit's messy, non-linear, non-monotonic. No need to put a bow on it.

The marshmellow test was debunked. Turns out like many if these bad experiments when you factor socioeconomic status the test cannot be reproduced. Turns out poor hungry kids just tend to eat free food when its available.

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#102

Post by burningChrome »

sitkack wrote: post #68
ableSprocket11 wrote: post #57

I like his articles, but the artificial constructs sometimes drive me up the wall. After reading through a fairly rudimentary strawman about outcomes defining the difference between obstinacy and persistence, we reach the last paragraph that trades a poorly defined word (persistence) for five poorly defined words (imagination, focus, energy, judgement, resilience) persistence is also defined by flexibility in thinkin…

I too like these Just So Stories of the Startup Underground, but damn, they come off like Malcolm Gladwell forming a taxonomy of the kids that got it vs the kids that don't. These are all properties of people, that ebb and flow and change from each problem they are working on. It is more productive to talk about contextualized behaviors over the properties of people.

I've found that properties and other traits in people can be malleable and change over time.

I have tons of personal experiences where a new developer seems very obstinate because they've never had anybody really challenge the way they do things. They get onto a project and suddenly get put in their place by a more senior developer. It might have to happen once, or several times before they start to change how they approach things and become more humble over time.

But I agree, properties of people can change, behaviors you can change for a short time, but you inevitably will regress back to how you normally behave. As such, behaviors tend to be easier to observe and predict.

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#103

Post by prewett »

konschubert wrote: post #25

I often wonder into which of these two categories I fall with my epaper calendars. On the one hand, I’ve been working on this product for four years, put every free minute into it, and it still doesn’t make enough money for me to quit my job. On the other hand, the product keeps getting better as I work on it, and I have now sold 500 of them. But sometimes I feel like I can’t keep going like this. Two jobs and a fami…

First, change the image at the top of that link to show the different apps. Right it's calendars until below the fold (on a desktop), and I didn't scroll down because "eh, physical calendar, not interested". Also, apparently I did not read the text very carefully (maybe because clearly it's a calendar, it says so in the link) and didn't notice the "other apps" bit for several minutes.

However, I don't think the market for this is very large, especially at the current price. How many people have enough events per day that they need a calendar? Plus, my phone already has a calendar, and it has reminders so I don't even need to look at it. If I were married maybe syncing up calendars could be useful, so if that's the use case then put that in the picture. I don't get the whole show-a-website thing. I know HN likes putting the NYT on their wall, but I just don't get it, especially at 125 dpi. A photo, okay, but B&W and 600x480 is not what I'm looking to spend $150 + $3/month for. Also, anything with a subscription is right out. Reliance on external servers is right out, sooner or later that server is going to go away.

The problem as I see it is that the things you put on your desk/wall are either art, 300 dpi color photos, whiteboard for todos, clocks, and calendars. This only really fits the last two--except that there is no option for clocks (say, clock and clock+picture)--and $150 seems kind of expensive for that. Expensive compared to what $150 could buy me, given that a synced up calendar is just a click away on my browser and integrated into my phone.

Since you asked for advice, I'd say you have a cool hobby/craft/maker project, but not a saleable product. Pivot or quit. For instance, if you want to try the hobby route, you could make it to fit standard picture frames of a given size and offer one yourself for extra, and make it assemble-yourself. Saves time on your part, reduces costs, so you can sell it cheaper. Provide a download to setup a local server, and an option to display a PNG (= inexpensive way for users to write pixels directly) via USB or something. I don't know if that's a good idea, but it seems like a wider market.

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#104

Post by nxobject »

munificent wrote: post #58

I like this article a lot. I think a lot of the distinction between persistence and obstinance comes down to identity, attachment, and self esteem. Almost everyone who is persistent or obstinant has something to prove. They have some deep-seated feeling that they need to demonstrate something to their community, a sense that maybe their value is in some ways conditional on what they provide. Content people who feel a…

That’s a fantastic crystallizing idea. In my experience, I’ve tried to temper that dance between self drive and flexibility by reflecting on what overarching goals to commit to… the resulting sense of understanding and control at an overarching level like that is what has helped me.

Of course, the hard part is in knowing what goals to commit to, and what to back off from!

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#105

Post by alganet »

> When you point out problems, their eyes glaze over, and their replies sound like ideologues talking about matters of doctrine

I feel this post needs a counterpart "The Right Kind of Naysayer", which distinguishes between good and bad ways of pointing out problems.

I believe the environment matters (did I learned around people who made valid points, or around sophist ideologues?). If you're around obstinate stubborns, you're likely to become more like one, specially if they are rewarded by their obstinance.

Of course, all of this is ultimately anectodal. We can't seriously put people in boxes like this. It is good food for thought though.

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#106

Post by scubbo »

Suppafly wrote: post #71
arp242 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an old anecdote where I think Pascal, but I'm not sure, argued the existence or non-existence of God in front of the king with another philosopher. Maybe-Pascal exclaimed loudly and with great confidence "A plus C equal B squared! Therefore God exists! COUNTER!" The other philosopher didn't know much about mathematics, had no idea to reply, got flustered, and "lost" the argument.[1] And honestly, I'm not sure…

>I found that no, it really is that dumb, and I had understood it correctly months ago, and all the jargon was just meaningless bollocks word salad. My brother is an artist and absolutely refused to believe that the hype around NFTs was just bullshit. I'm sure if I called and asked right now, he'd still give me some word salad about how it's going to start paying off any day now. Now if anyone talks to me about NFTs,…

I have a friend who's still convinced that GameStop's going to the moon. Any day now...

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#107

Post by djaouen »

This sounds wishy washy to me. So the difference between persistent and obstinate is up to the individual? Or consensus? In other words, what would be an example of someone who was persistent and not obstinate but didn’t succeed?

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#108

Post by knowaveragejoe »

pilingual wrote: post #85
arp242 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an old anecdote where I think Pascal, but I'm not sure, argued the existence or non-existence of God in front of the king with another philosopher. Maybe-Pascal exclaimed loudly and with great confidence "A plus C equal B squared! Therefore God exists! COUNTER!" The other philosopher didn't know much about mathematics, had no idea to reply, got flustered, and "lost" the argument.[1] And honestly, I'm not sure…

Why are NFTs dumb? How can I buy a digital asset sold by an artist?

NFTs are not a good solution to buying artwork. They are a novel concept, but translating that to conventional problems around ownership is difficult and probably not the best solution.

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#109

Post by yellowapple »

stcredzero wrote: post #65
wkcheng wrote: post #44

This is a great article on the difference between an obstinate person and a persistent person, but I'm not sure the general public perceives them the same way that Paul does. What I've found is that many times, people like the perceived confidence that obstinacy can bring. For example, let's say that someone points out a flaw in a plan. Person A responds by saying "That's not a real problem. It doesn't matter." Perso…

What I've found is that many times, people like the perceived confidence that obstinacy can bring. The problem with that method of evaluation, is that it's not First Principles. Basically, pg's essay in this case just reduces down to, "Is that person steered by First Principles thinking?"

Most people ain't steered by first-principles thinking, though, and that's the problem. To most people, first-principles-driven thinking lacks sufficient actionability; they just want definite answers, and first-principles-driven thinking tends to produce answers that are anything but definite.

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#110

Post by red_admiral »

arp242 wrote: post #59
wkcheng wrote: post #44

This is a great article on the difference between an obstinate person and a persistent person, but I'm not sure the general public perceives them the same way that Paul does. What I've found is that many times, people like the perceived confidence that obstinacy can bring. For example, let's say that someone points out a flaw in a plan. Person A responds by saying "That's not a real problem. It doesn't matter." Perso…

There's an old anecdote where I think Pascal, but I'm not sure, argued the existence or non-existence of God in front of the king with another philosopher. Maybe-Pascal exclaimed loudly and with great confidence "A plus C equal B squared! Therefore God exists! COUNTER!" The other philosopher didn't know much about mathematics, had no idea to reply, got flustered, and "lost" the argument.[1] And honestly, I'm not sure…

Euler, not Pascal, but the story is most likely apocryphal anyway. See http://www.fen.bilkent.edu.tr/~franz/M300/bell2.pdf , which contains a link to a PDF discussing (and dismissing) the original story, and is a nice read on its own.
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