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US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

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Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#101

The Federal government made a deal with forrest communities. We will have national forests that you won't get any property tax revenues from, but you will get revenue from the forestry, mining, and other economic activity on that land. Then the federal government shutdown most economic activity, and local communities had to shutdown their schools and other government functions (while at the same time losing their lum…

Outside of cities, the main ways to make a living is using the natural resources. Logging, mining, farming etc. Laws are made by city people, who think of work as something you do sitting by a desk. They see the countryside as a nature reserve to keep beautiful for their vacation trips. So they ban most commercial use of natural resources. This is part of what makes rural communities poor and desperate societies, sur…

As a counter point, in Western NC the National Forests are major tourist destinations, and many rural towns with no other industry to speak of are able to thrive because people come from all over to enjoy them. These towns are filled with businesses catering to tourists and there are plenty of jobs doing so.

Logging isn't the only way for a community to profit from a forest, conservation can do this too.

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#102
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

where is the Board of Directors, owners and investors of Earthforce.io declared in public?

Unless it's a public company/non-profit they don't have to make any of this information public in most(all?) US states. Usually all you have to do is make public the name of the company and the registered agent(typically the lawyer you hire to receive legal notices for the company). They appear to be a private company: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/earth-force-technolo...

ah right crumchbase - founder with a "crunchbase rank" in the two hundred thousands range, stanford-stanford-harvard. there is something about stealth combined with valuations.. can't put my finger on it..

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#103
post #83
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a person arguing on hackernews can't understand the scam that requires a 3rd grade mathematics education, bthen I don't have a lot for the general public.

And that is why it keeps happening. Bonus: cut education enough, and it even gets easier to do!

[dead]

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#104
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of cities, the main ways to make a living is using the natural resources. Logging, mining, farming etc. Laws are made by city people, who think of work as something you do sitting by a desk. They see the countryside as a nature reserve to keep beautiful for their vacation trips. So they ban most commercial use of natural resources. This is part of what makes rural communities poor and desperate societies, sur…

yes, poor people prosper when international megacorps pay them minimum wage to chop down all their trees. the corp keeps all the profit, and moves on when the trees are gone, and usually leaves a bunch of pollution behind. That's why old mining towns in the appalachians are so prosperous!

Confident assertions in this post:

- Loggers were only paid minimum wage.

- International megacorps controlled the whole American logging business.

- Every single trees were chopped down, without any replanting. Because... international megacorps hate future profits?

- Being international (non American), the megacorps made sure to leave pollution behind.

- Old Appalachian mining towns were also ravaged by the same internationalist forces.

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#105
post #66
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Backdoor defunding by not adjusting for inflation is definitely a thing but that seems like a separate issue from what I was responding to re: where the funds come from and if they are kept separate, not how much should be spent in total. > Repeat as needed until general fund is handing the equivalent of 90m with the slack taken up by the lottery. The lottery picking up the slack so that the general fund doesn’t have…

> The lottery picking up the slack so the general fund doesn’t have to do all of it is the whole point. That’s identical to the lottery just putting money directly into the general fund. Unless the funding source results in an increase in total funding this stuff is pure theatre.

>> The lottery picking up the slack so the general fund doesn’t have to do all of it is the whole point.

> That’s identical to the lottery just putting money directly into the general fund.

While that's true, your example upthread seems to obscure the fact rather than illustrate it. Try this one:

1. (19X3) Oregon funds its public school system to the tune of $70 million. This is "not enough".

2. (19X4) Oregon implements a lottery dedicated to funding the school system. In the meantime, it funds the schools to the tune of $70 million.

3. (19X5) The lottery system has been set up; it provides $20 million just for the schools. Oregon makes up the rest by contributing $50 million out of the general fund.

Where did the money from the lottery go? Not to the schools. The cash flow table clearly shows that funding to the schools hasn't increased while the general fund is up $20 million. Inflation isn't relevant. Allocations from the general fund are discretionary.

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#106
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One could measure the tonnage of tree farm wood extracted per day against the estimated tonnage of the trees in a non-farm environment pretty easily I would think. Old growth has a far deeper and broader root system which is a relatively permanent and ever increasing store of carbon in relation to farmed new growth. Roots and stumps of cut new growth are sometimes extracted and used for biofuel, transferring that c…

Not true frankly. Old growth plateaus from a ton/acre of carbon perspective pretty quickly, and old growth forests aren’t meaningfully sequestering much new carbon in their soil. It reaches a steady state, with excess rotting. Almost no forests do, or they’d be sitting on hundreds of feet of charcoal like matter. Even the best of them it’s less than 6 feet of carbon containing soil. New growth pulls carbon out of the…

> Old growth plateaus from a ton/acre of carbon perspective pretty quickly, and old growth forests aren’t meaningfully sequestering much new carbon in their soil. It reaches a steady state, with excess rotting. Almost no forests do, or they’d be sitting on hundreds of feet of charcoal like matter. > New growth pulls carbon out of the atmosphere fast - and cutting it down and using it, gives room for more, fast.

Once it reaches this steady state, how much carbon has it already stored? How long will the average undisturbed old growth forest remain at steady state? 200 years, 1000 years? 10000 years? Surely longer than the average lifespan of all the products a destroyed old growth forest might produce. This is especially true when considering that old growth wood is particularly valuable for use as biofuel due to its high carbon density. This means that that carbon will be released far sooner than it otherwise would have, likely magnitudes sooner. And it says nothing of the carbon that doesn't even make it into a product. The simple act of killing the forest and turning over the soil will immediately release carbon.

But, you might say, we'll plant new growth and that'll absorb carbon at a faster rate than ever. Is that rate fast enough to account for the early release of the old growth carbon? How many cycles will it take to recapture that carbon?

> Even the best of them it’s less than 6 feet of carbon containing soil.

So? Is that an average for old growth forest soil? How does it compare to new growth soil average? A single measurement is meaningless here.

More importantly, what is the comparitive density of the carbon in the soil? Depth of carbon-containing soil without a density doesn't tell me much about the total carbon stored.

> the math is clear and easy to verify.

If you say so, but unfortunately you didn't provide any math whatsoever. You seem confident though so if you have any sources, then please do share. I did a quick search for various numbers and comparisons and the numbers don't look good for your argument unless you are only comparing the rates at a given moment and ignoring the total sequestered carbon over a suitable time range (there's probably a better description for this...something like average years of sequestration for any given carbon atom during the average lifespan of an undisturbed old growth forest vs the same tract of land cyclically harvested and replanted at a profit-maximing rate over the same time period)

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#107
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you and parent comment might actually agree. The 3x trees is an indication of too much, too many small trees, too much fuel. Places that burn and recover lose their "excess" trees. The trees get more space and are healthy top to bottom. OTOH, tree farm trees are bred to have few branches and are planted very close together. Tree farms grow tree trunks, not trees. There is a line of thought, which honestly I t…

Why would you be skeptical of tree farming leading to less carbon sequestering? The whole point of farming timber is to harvest wood which is lignin and cellulose aka CARBON. The green leaves on the tree are not what will store carbon. The green will fall off and become forest duff which gets digested by fungi and bugs and the carbon released back to the atmosphere. Goal of timber companies == make more timber timber…

I am skeptical of most "more trees" approaches simply because it's not really sequestering carbon in the long term unless you carefully bury the wood underground in rot-preventing conditions.

It's like a bathtub where the faucet is pouring out more than the drain can handle, and the "solution" is to throw a bunch of sponges in. Sure, it'll kinda temporarily keep the water level down, but at some point...

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#108
It's unclear whether the mention of climate change here is pure editorializing but, if not, then here is another example of where the modern obsession with climate change is negatively impacting conservation of valuable habitats for wildlife. (It shouldn't need pointing out, but conservation of valuable habitat for wildlife is a human obligation and essentially synonymous with looking after the other organisms with which we share Earth, and is partially correlated but not synonymous with countering anthropogenic climate change).

Or put another way, if a human is fearful for their safety due to their proximity to old-growth trees, then they should not live there. Same reasoning as for bears or tigers or sharks: the answer isn't "kill them".

> Officials told the Associated Press that a sweeping ban on logging old-growth would make it harder to thin forests to protect communities against wildfires that have grown more severe as the planet warms.

> “To ensure the longevity of old-growth forests, we’re going to have to take proactive management to protect against wildfire and insects and disease,” Forest Service Deputy Chief Chris French said.

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#109
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true frankly. Old growth plateaus from a ton/acre of carbon perspective pretty quickly, and old growth forests aren’t meaningfully sequestering much new carbon in their soil. It reaches a steady state, with excess rotting. Almost no forests do, or they’d be sitting on hundreds of feet of charcoal like matter. Even the best of them it’s less than 6 feet of carbon containing soil. New growth pulls carbon out of the…

> Old growth plateaus from a ton/acre of carbon perspective pretty quickly, and old growth forests aren’t meaningfully sequestering much new carbon in their soil. It reaches a steady state, with excess rotting. Almost no forests do, or they’d be sitting on hundreds of feet of charcoal like matter. > New growth pulls carbon out of the atmosphere fast - and cutting it down and using it, gives room for more, fast. Once…

I've shared the sources in other threads. Here are some random ones I found with a few minutes of googling [https://oldgrowthforestecology.org/ecological-values-of-old-...

Most of these products do actually end up sequestering carbon nearly indefinitely, as unless the house or structure burns down, the product ends up in the landfill or remains on site. Unlike forest products on the forest floor, they don't naturally decompose - we protect them to stop that, as a side effect of how we use them.

Because it is usually pretty well protected, and doesn't meaningfully decompose. Even in most (sufficiently old) landfills, you can dig up newspapers from the late 1800's and still read them. When people print things out, the vast majority of them end up shredded (and tossed in the trash), or just tossed in the trash - which ends up landfilling them, etc.

Once landfilled, what decomposition does happen can be mitigated by processing/burning/storing what methane and the like does come off them.

You're confusing carbon storage (as in total retained) with carbon flux (as in net amounts in/out). Something that old growth folks intentionally also do (first link), near as I can tell, to specifically confuse the issue. If you read carefully you can see them stepping around the issue in the first link I pointed you too.

TOTAL carbon starts to plateau relatively quickly, even as noted by old growth proponents - with total carbon flux dropping and eventually being roughly at equilibrium - usually well before we even consider a forest 'old growth'. If you look at the charts in the second link, you can see the actual curve.

Peak flux (as in total negative carbon) is usually at around 15-20 years.

I'm not proposing we cut down all old growth forests. That would be ugly and counterproductive.

Rather that making a forest that has already been cut down be untouched until it becomes old growth is not the most efficient way to reduce carbon, if we're trying to use forests as carbon sinks.

Be aware however, I've done the math before and even if we turn ALL potentially forestable AND farmable land into forests, it is impossible to sink all the carbon we're currently emitting into forests. Not even close, unfortunately.

But if land has already been harvested (which most has), the more efficient way to reduce carbon is a decent amount of turnover where the products end up going into either durable goods, or landfilled products.

I love trees, and spend a lot of time in nature. I've also done the research, and looked at the reality in front of me, and it's hard to ignore.

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#110
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything has externalities though. Don't get me wrong I'm all for a forest going unlogged, but we will replace those resources with something else. We still use lumber, if it isn't locally harvested we buy it from another part of the world, outsourcing those externalities and throwing in all the extra costs of shipping, labor overhead for the various middlemen, customs, etc. My point isn't that we're screwed and sh…

What if America decided to import a lot of Canadian lumber? It's geographically close and the size of the forests are mindbogglingly vast. Could this happen in a way that benefits American construction interests but also Canadian lumber exporting interests? If there's ever some dispute about it could it be mediated somehow? What would the outcome of that possibly be?

> What if America decided to import a lot of Canadian lumber?

Isn't that already happening?

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