Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000% • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#101

Post by morsch » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 4:19 PM UTC

mironathetin wrote: post #69

morsch wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fee pays for public broadcasting, not just public TV. Public broadcasting includes TV, radio, and the internet presence of the TV and radio media. I don't have a TV, but I do listen to public radio and I use public news web sites all the time. I think the new system is much more reasonable than the previous system, which had loads of people claiming they don't own any kind of receiving device when that claim is j…

I agree, the previous system was bad. It has been replaced by a system that is also bad. Even worse, this one can be attacked in court because it is obviously unfair. This is the only situation I know, where a company distributes their product for free and then asks everybody to pay for it. This is a special situation of course, because the public broadcasting has the official task to educate and report in a neutral…

No. The way it's supposed to work is if you can access is, you've got to chip in. It's not supposed to be based on actual usage. In a manner of speaking, it's supposed to be available to everyone, even if no one was watching it.

You're not suggesting a strict improvement but a change, and a drastic one at that (essentially equivalent to a privatization), and I imagine you'd need a national two-thirds majority to change the constitution to implement it. I might be wrong about that, I don't know how much leeway there is regarding the implementation.

Just think of it as a tax, as essentially that's what it is, just a special one that bypasses the government to make it more difficult for them to exert influence on public broadcasting.

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#102

Post by SoftwareMaven » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 4:21 PM UTC

foob wrote: post #28

We have similar 3% in the US on blank media cds ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#United_Sta... ). The Audio Home Recording Act of 1992, the same legislation that put these levies into place, also protected the rights of individuals to make non-commercial copies of copyrighted works. At least that's my read on it, though I am not a lawyer. All of the comments here seem vehemently opposed to the levy…

How could that ever be distributed fairly? How do you determine what percentage the Gaga's get versus the indy artist down the street? Given this would cannibalize sales, you wouldn't be able to use sales figures because there would be no way for a new group to get to the level of sales a Lady Gaga had.

If the government starts deciding, you make music a communistic business, which would not be good for music.

(For the record, I think the levies as they stand are wrong for the exact same reasons; you just replace the govt with groups like the RIAA.)

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#103

Post by cabalamat » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 5:11 PM UTC

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #102

foob wrote: post #28

We have similar 3% in the US on blank media cds ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#United_Sta... ). The Audio Home Recording Act of 1992, the same legislation that put these levies into place, also protected the rights of individuals to make non-commercial copies of copyrighted works. At least that's my read on it, though I am not a lawyer. All of the comments here seem vehemently opposed to the levy…

How could that ever be distributed fairly? How do you determine what percentage the Gaga's get versus the indy artist down the street? Given this would cannibalize sales, you wouldn't be able to use sales figures because there would be no way for a new group to get to the level of sales a Lady Gaga had. If the government starts deciding, you make music a communistic business, which would not be good for music. (For t…

> How could that ever be distributed fairly?

One possibility: http://cabalamat.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/a-broadband-tax-fo...

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#104

Post by kika » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 5:30 PM UTC

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #102

foob wrote: post #28

We have similar 3% in the US on blank media cds ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#United_Sta... ). The Audio Home Recording Act of 1992, the same legislation that put these levies into place, also protected the rights of individuals to make non-commercial copies of copyrighted works. At least that's my read on it, though I am not a lawyer. All of the comments here seem vehemently opposed to the levy…

How could that ever be distributed fairly? How do you determine what percentage the Gaga's get versus the indy artist down the street? Given this would cannibalize sales, you wouldn't be able to use sales figures because there would be no way for a new group to get to the level of sales a Lady Gaga had. If the government starts deciding, you make music a communistic business, which would not be good for music. (For t…

"communistic business" - awesome

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#105

Post by crumblan » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 5:40 PM UTC

foob wrote: post #28

We have similar 3% in the US on blank media cds ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#United_Sta... ). The Audio Home Recording Act of 1992, the same legislation that put these levies into place, also protected the rights of individuals to make non-commercial copies of copyrighted works. At least that's my read on it, though I am not a lawyer. All of the comments here seem vehemently opposed to the levy…

This should not be a tax. The industries involved are already buying unjust laws from Congress, none of us needs Congress giving them more money to do so.

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#106

Post by crumblan » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 5:57 PM UTC

microtonal wrote: post #42

zobzu wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's piracy tax. Other countries have this. It's called "fair use". In general, and in fact I sort of believe it is also that way in Germany, not a law that allow you to copy stuff to your close friends. It allows you to make copies for yourself (backups, etc), and to view/listen to those copies or the original with your family. NOT giving or copying it to them. Anyway, since you're letting your family view/listen,…

In some countries (I don't know about Germany) it is not the same as 'fair use'. E.g. in The Netherlands the result of these levies is that you can legally download music and movies from Usenet for personal use, without purchasing an original copy. However, you are not allowed to upload music or movies. This was a direct translation of how the law worked before: I could not make a copy of an album for you, but you co…

In the US it is not against the law (yet) to download but it is a copyright violation to share.

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#107

Post by njharman » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 6:05 PM UTC

frooxie wrote: post #76

dalore wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I lived in a country where the "pirate" levy was in place I would feel justified in copyright infringement because I would feel I have already paid for it.

I doubt that this is a "pirate levy" at all. The fee on storage media is usually supposed to cover media shared with family and close friends, which is legal in many countries and does not count as piracy.

Why does one very specific industry get government mandated, compulsory tariff?

Hint: starts with "lobby" ends with "ists"

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#108

Post by wizzard » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 6:20 PM UTC

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #102

foob wrote: post #28

We have similar 3% in the US on blank media cds ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#United_Sta... ). The Audio Home Recording Act of 1992, the same legislation that put these levies into place, also protected the rights of individuals to make non-commercial copies of copyrighted works. At least that's my read on it, though I am not a lawyer. All of the comments here seem vehemently opposed to the levy…

How could that ever be distributed fairly? How do you determine what percentage the Gaga's get versus the indy artist down the street? Given this would cannibalize sales, you wouldn't be able to use sales figures because there would be no way for a new group to get to the level of sales a Lady Gaga had. If the government starts deciding, you make music a communistic business, which would not be good for music. (For t…

Are you thinking that the money would be distributed to the actual artists? What a crazy notion.

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#109

Post by wizzard » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 6:30 PM UTC

foob wrote: post #28

We have similar 3% in the US on blank media cds ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#United_Sta... ). The Audio Home Recording Act of 1992, the same legislation that put these levies into place, also protected the rights of individuals to make non-commercial copies of copyrighted works. At least that's my read on it, though I am not a lawyer. All of the comments here seem vehemently opposed to the levy…

I keep seeing comments about how the tax is a tradeoff for certain rights. Last I checked, legality is determined by laws, not by paying $5. I don't pay a "freedom of speech tax" or a "suffrage tax" when I protest or vote.

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#110

Post by tzs » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 6:33 PM UTC

Richard Stallman has suggested something similar, but with the tax being on internet use rather than media, and with the money being distributed to artists in proportion to the cube root of their popularity.

http://stallman.org/articles/internet-sharing-license.en.htm...

It is possible to prove mathematically that a free market doesn't work with goods that that have a significant cost to create but that are infinitely copyable, without restriction, at essentially zero cost once created.

The current copyright laws address this by restricting copying. The basic idea is to intellectual property artificially behave like physical property, so that the market can work.

There are a couple of disadvantages to this approach. (1) it makes IP goods more expensive to the consumer than they "should" be, so there will be underconsumption compared to what people would consume if the price was lower. (2) people can easily cheat.

The major advantage of this approach is that it leaves the decision of what works get made up to the market.

The other major way to address the market failure, which is the one Stallman suggests, is that you do artificially make IP act like physical problem, and so go ahead and let the market make and distribute copies without restriction, and address the problem of creation by public funding.

This is arguably fair since almost everyone does consume music, movies, and other forms of art. Essentially it is treated as a public good.

The advantage of that system is that consumers end up paying close to the marginal cost for their entertainment (i.e., $0), which is the economically "correct" price. Another advantage is that it does not rely on people obeying a legal fiction.

The disadvantage is that if art is being treated as a public good is that you (1) have to decide on the source of funding, (2) the funding level, and (3) how to distribute the money.

For source of funding, the most sensible seems to be some kind of tax specifically for this, probably tied to something that at least vaguely correlates with art consumption.

I have no idea how one would go about determining the funding level.

For distribution, something based on popularity seems sensible. Note that under this approach, all copying and sharing would be completely legal so there would be no need to try to hide it, so it would be feasible to figure out popularity by sampling network traffic. In fact, since it would be in the interest of content creators to ensure accurate measurement of popularity, I suspect that there would be big official free fast download services sponsored by the content creators, with good search and recommendation features, and most people would download through those rather than use P2P.