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How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

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Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#101

Post by divan »

user_7832 wrote: post #77
divan wrote: post #60

MHBKD recently made a video on Apple testing lab [1], and one thing he talked about and that was kinda new to me is seeing repairability as a spectrum. I.e. on one side is "indestructible" product and on the other is "perfectly repairable". And that those properties (being hard to damage/destruct and being easy to repair) might be mutually exclusive. In a hindsight it seems obvious, still this video was the first tim…

Disclaimer: I haven't seen the video (I'm in a quiet place right now.) > And that those properties (being hard to damage/destruct and being easy to repair) might be mutually exclusive. I disagree on a fundamental level. You could say such a thing when talking about really small (micro/miniature) devices. But as size increases, the validity of such arguments rapidly goes down. A phone case/bumper for example - makes t…

> I haven't seen the video ... I disagree on a fundamental level.

Right )

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#102

Post by mschuster91 »

user_7832 wrote: post #77
divan wrote: post #60

MHBKD recently made a video on Apple testing lab [1], and one thing he talked about and that was kinda new to me is seeing repairability as a spectrum. I.e. on one side is "indestructible" product and on the other is "perfectly repairable". And that those properties (being hard to damage/destruct and being easy to repair) might be mutually exclusive. In a hindsight it seems obvious, still this video was the first tim…

Disclaimer: I haven't seen the video (I'm in a quiet place right now.) > And that those properties (being hard to damage/destruct and being easy to repair) might be mutually exclusive. I disagree on a fundamental level. You could say such a thing when talking about really small (micro/miniature) devices. But as size increases, the validity of such arguments rapidly goes down. A phone case/bumper for example - makes t…

> but many prefer a smaller thickness/bezel etc.

There would not be an issue for Apple or Samsung to design a backplane that uses screws to hold the phone together, eliminating the need for glue entirely.

It just looks a bit ugly.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#103

Post by jopsen »

shermozle wrote: post #16
jopsen wrote: post #13

Asking a warranty repair on a 9 years old oven is a bit of a stretch. I doubt it'd fly in the EU.

The question I ask straight back at you: how long do you think an oven should last?

> how long do you think an oven should last?

30 years :)

But I actually think it's fine that the warranty shorter than 9 years.

Even, if I agree that 2 years (as is common) is too short.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#104

Post by olabyne »

cbmuser wrote: post #52
promiseofbeans wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've been conditioned by anti-consumer companies who want you to BUY BUY BUY to expect that. Ovens should last 20 years or more, and if you're sold a faulty product, it's fair to expect it to be fixed. Luckily there are still a few countries at the bottom of the world with good consumer legislation.

You do realize that in the end the manufacturers will just increase prices or move production to low-wage countries, no?

I'm pretty sure that manufacturers have some room to include a 9-year reliability in the design of a +700€ oven. That's why consumer laws have differents warranties.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#105

Post by sitharus »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #56
promiseofbeans wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is already a precedent - the law. These go to court all the time, and the consumer almost always wins, hence why the companies want to avoid the lawyer fees, since they know they'll lose.

The law is not a precedent. The law is generic and courts deal with specifics.

These cases do not go to court, they go to a tribunal. They are not heard by a judge (or at least a judge in their capacity as a court justice) and the results are not entered as judicial cases and do not set precedent.

It’s designed so a lay person can represent themselves without having to understand the justice system.

I know in New South Wales companies have to apply for special leave to have a lawyer represent them, and they need to supply a reason why. In New Zealand lawyers are not allowed in the tribunal, a company must be represented by a manager.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#106

Post by theodric »

sneak wrote: post #98

Regardless, you should still never ever buy an HP printer. Tell your friends and family.

I mean, a LaserJet 4L is still quite a decent printer today. Just don't buy an HP printer that was made in the last 25 years, and you should be fine!

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#107

Post by sofixa »

Redneck-Tech wrote: post #73

Absolutely blows my mind how many people have fallen into the trap that is "SMART" devices and "POWER EFFICIENT" appliances. Only to find out just after the warranty runs out that they ultimately invested in a hawt piece of trash. There is no pride in manufactured goods anymore, imho there's not much pride in anything nowadays. Not surprising when a burger engineer at McDonald's makes more money than even an entry le…

> Absolutely blows my mind how many people have fallen into the trap that is "SMART" devices and "POWER EFFICIENT" appliances. Only to find out just after the warranty runs out that they ultimately invested in a hawt piece of trash

Those two/three things are entirely unrelated.

Power efficient appliances are a must in most countries not powered by low-carbon energy (so in the EU, that basically leaves everyone outside of France and the Nordics), and a good to have for those that are. Quality of those appliances is entirely unrelated to their power efficiency.

Smart appliances are on a spectrum. Some are useless, some are practical. Again, their quality is entirely unrelated to their smartness. Their smartness can be optional, non-blocking and using open protocols; or it can be mandatory, cloud-only so that when the cloud service gets retired to save money the appliance is useless. As an example, my LG washing machine/dryer combo can connect to my Wi-Fi network to be able to send me notifications when it's done, to load custom programmes, to remind me I need to do a wash cycle of the machine itself. Those are useful features, entirely optional, and the machine won't stop working if it can't connect to the Wi-Fi.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#108

Post by throwaway2037 »

bell-cot wrote: post #89
promiseofbeans wrote: post #36

We've got a similar thing in New Zealand: the Consumer Guarantees Act. The people who sold the broken thing to you can either fix it, replace it, or refund you the cost of it. The decision is unfortunately up to them, so they sadly often replace things rather than fixing them. Consumer NZ is usually used as the independent source for expected product lifetimes: https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/appliance-life-expe…

15 years seems darn short for an oven. The (electric) one I have now is from the late 1960's, and perfectly functional. At church, our (gas) kitchen oven is about a century old - and the last service man we had said that it should be good for another century, if we're careful not to let it rust out.

When I lived in Hongkong, my oven failed after less than 10 years. When my landlord came to replace it, he told me that it was common due to the extreme humidity that eventually ruins the circuit boards. I'm still a bit skeptical of that explanation -- but he has probably replaced more "white goods" (refrig, oven, etc.) that I will in a lifetime. Weirdly, my washing machine by Bosch was tough as nails and never had any issues. One would assume that it would be similarly affected by the humidity.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#109

Post by Denvercoder9 »

gpderetta wrote: post #81
constantcrying wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the courts really matter, what does matter are the legal guarantees. In the EU it is an explicit two years, so I think a situation like this, where a 9 year old appliances is being repaired under threat of legal action, simply won't arise as the customer has no legal basis for his claim.

A not often discussed problem with the EU guarantee is that in the first 6 months, every defect is presumed to have been present at the time it was bought. After 6 months it is on the consumer to prove it, and for most things it is just not worth it to pay for an expert opinion. So in practice the iron clad guarantee is only 6 months for most consumer products. At least that's the interpretation of the law in the UK.…

The term at which burden of proof shifts from the retailer to the consumer has been raised to 1 year in the EU (maybe not in the UK due to Brexit). As this is a matter of civil law, the standard of proof is also "more likely than not" proof, not "beyond reasonable doubt". You don't necessarily need an expert opinion, it _can_ be sufficient to collect a bunch of reports of similar failures.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#110

Post by winternewt »

Tistron wrote: post #70
bjackman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's actually what you meant to ask (I think you are actually interested in legally mandated warranties rather than the courts where they're enforced) but I think most countries have something equivalent to "small claims court" to make low-stakes suits viable. I have successfully used exactly the same technique of "get a court date, wait for your opponent to contact you and resolve the issue, cancel the…

Yeah, I guess I was/am curious about both. It seems like we have 2 year legally enforced warranty (which I knew about), and some sort of small claims court (which I did not know about). I think I would have heard about legally mandated warranties that extended beyond the 2 years I knew about. The Australian system seems quite reasonable, I wonder why we don't have something like that? 2 years for everything seems pre…

What's the small claims court named in Swedish?
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