Live data from Hacker News

FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

nytimes.com

101–110 of 267 posts

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#101
The headline is spun. The text of the article doesn't allege "counterfeit titanium", only that the paperwork chain contains (according I guess to an audit done internally at Spirit) counterfeit documents. What that says about the metal itself is unknown. It seems more likely to me to be legitimate but stolen titanium than it does to be fake material.

It's not really feasible to fake something like a raw metal. Nothing else looks like titanium, nothing has the weight properties, even things like smells are different between metals that come out of different processes and tarnish in different ways. Basically by the time you got something that wouldn't be noticed by the assembly crews you'd have spent so much you might as well just have bought stolen titanium on the black market.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#102

Perhaps they came from a certain Republic of Crimea? I've glanced the article but didn't figure out the source.

Another article said it was sourced from the Chinese. This detail was suspiciously deleted from this one.

Turkish supplier who reportedly got it from a Chinese supplier, and where they got it from is unknown since the Chinese supplier apparently forged the certificates using the name of a Chinese source (apparently in good standing) who say they did not make it. The actual source at this point is unknown, only a couple links in the supply chain.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#103
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey now, that was done by Boeing

According to most reporting, Spirit removed, then failed to re-install the door. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-loose-bolts-alaska-airli...

Yes, but to be fair the reporting is incomplete because the Boeing-maintained records of the maintenance were incomplete in seemingly-deliberate ways. So... we just don't know. At least one, plausibly two bad guys there.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#104
post #101

The headline is spun. The text of the article doesn't allege "counterfeit titanium", only that the paperwork chain contains (according I guess to an audit done internally at Spirit) counterfeit documents . What that says about the metal itself is unknown. It seems more likely to me to be legitimate but stolen titanium than it does to be fake material. It's not really feasible to fake something like a raw metal. Nothi…

It's also possible that they're using an alloy which is not easily detected, or that the titanium is in a part which was painted or otherwise coated before receipt by Spirit

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#105
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What was the problematic outsourcing decision here? Buying from an untrusted source without any verification of your own in place. > Buying your titanium from a titanium supplier? For all we know they bought it on wish.com. > Is Spirit supposed to be refine and foundry all their own metal alloys? Random sampling of materials to determine if the delivery is fit for purpose should be the absolute minimum.

But the problem isn't outsourcing, it is failed incoming inspection.

Spirit itself is an "outsourcing" from Boeing's point of view. They spun it off so they could put more aggressive downwards pressure on labor price and then play dumb when it had the obvious and well understood outcomes like "buying underspecced materials to save money" and "workers don't do all the work they should, to save money" and "having different systems to control work so you can massage the official one, to save money by doing less work"

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#106
post #101

The headline is spun. The text of the article doesn't allege "counterfeit titanium", only that the paperwork chain contains (according I guess to an audit done internally at Spirit) counterfeit documents . What that says about the metal itself is unknown. It seems more likely to me to be legitimate but stolen titanium than it does to be fake material. It's not really feasible to fake something like a raw metal. Nothi…

[deleted]

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#107
post #104
post #101

The headline is spun. The text of the article doesn't allege "counterfeit titanium", only that the paperwork chain contains (according I guess to an audit done internally at Spirit) counterfeit documents . What that says about the metal itself is unknown. It seems more likely to me to be legitimate but stolen titanium than it does to be fake material. It's not really feasible to fake something like a raw metal. Nothi…

It's also possible that they're using an alloy which is not easily detected, or that the titanium is in a part which was painted or otherwise coated before receipt by Spirit

> an alloy which is not easily detected

Seems implausible. Again, Ti is way out on the edge of properties, being intermediate between steel and aluminum in weight and stiffer than either. That alloy would be a pretty novel thing, and novel metallurgy is more expensive than the hot Titanium someone stole from a bomber graveyard in Siberia.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#108
post #101

The headline is spun. The text of the article doesn't allege "counterfeit titanium", only that the paperwork chain contains (according I guess to an audit done internally at Spirit) counterfeit documents . What that says about the metal itself is unknown. It seems more likely to me to be legitimate but stolen titanium than it does to be fake material. It's not really feasible to fake something like a raw metal. Nothi…

It's likely laundered through China from Russia bypass avoid sanctions.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#109
post #3

How the fuck do you counterfeit titanium it’s one of those things that is either or it’s not.

When you hear 'Titanium' mentioned in an engineering sense, rarely is this a reference to elemental titanium alone; structures use alloys of titanium which means small percentages of other metals are added (aluminum and vanadium for example are the two principle alloying metals in Grade 5 titanium, 6AL4V, probably the most common in aerosapce applications), and then the wrought products are even further processed thr…

Titanium is metallurgy on hard mode.[1] Iron and steel behave in a much more consistent way.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09215...

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#110
post #107
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also possible that they're using an alloy which is not easily detected, or that the titanium is in a part which was painted or otherwise coated before receipt by Spirit

> an alloy which is not easily detected Seems implausible. Again, Ti is way out on the edge of properties, being intermediate between steel and aluminum in weight and stiffer than either. That alloy would be a pretty novel thing, and novel metallurgy is more expensive than the hot Titanium someone stole from a bomber graveyard in Siberia.

According to Wikipedia, Ti alloys are commercially available, and used in aviation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloys
Post reply on HN