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EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

consilium.europa.eu

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Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#101

Post by 8372049 »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #96
8372049 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have the right to repair what you own. Based on what? Specifically, it's not listed in Article 17 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights [0] > This is aimed at preventing companies from preventing you from doing so. This is aimed at preventing companies from preventing professional repair services from doing so. [0] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

> Article 17 Right to property 1. Everyone has the right to own, use, dispose of and bequeath his or her lawfully acquired possessions. No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss. The use of property may be regulated by law in so far as is necessary fo…

My point is that this law grants rights to professional repairmen/service providers, not to consumers (or anyone else).

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#102

Post by 8372049 »

Jnr wrote: post #91
8372049 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have the right to repair what you own. Based on what? Specifically, it's not listed in Article 17 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights [0] > This is aimed at preventing companies from preventing you from doing so. This is aimed at preventing companies from preventing professional repair services from doing so. [0] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

Based on the fact that you own that thing and you can do whatever you want with it. The issue until now has been the availability of documentation (schematics, instructions, etc.). For example, in USA you can purchase Volvo service manual access as individual, but in EU it is not available at all.

Having a "right" to repair something doesn't really mean much if the vendors can legally keep documentation and spare parts from you, does it? The point is that this law does not give you any more rights on that matter, it only grants those rights to professionals.

Furthermore, "you can do what you want with it" is misleading if doing what you want with it (e.g. repairing it) will have unreasonable consequences such as unfairly void warranties and so on.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#103

Post by Cthulhu_ »

jonatron wrote: post #4

Why is there gatekeeping of "professional" repairers and "repair services"? Why can't I as a consumer view a service manual and buy a part? If a washing machine costs £220, and a professional repair man costs £70 per hour, nobody will repair out of warranty.

I suspect it's a compromise after pressure from both manufacturers and repair services; manufacturers so that repairs are gatekept, and the cost of repair remains relatively high (because the manufacturers control the supply and cost of replacement parts and tooling, e.g. with Apple providing certified repair places with tools (wasn't that on a lease / rental basis?)); if repair costs remain high because you have to pay someone else to do it, people will consider buying a replacement instead of keeping their devices.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#104

Post by Cthulhu_ »

gmerc wrote: post #32
jonatron wrote: post #4

Why is there gatekeeping of "professional" repairers and "repair services"? Why can't I as a consumer view a service manual and buy a part? If a washing machine costs £220, and a professional repair man costs £70 per hour, nobody will repair out of warranty.

Serious question, how do you think we keep unemployment from becoming catastrophic in this world ?

Has it become catastrophic in the 200 years since the industrial revolution threatened this would be the case, while the world population went up eightfold?

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#105

Post by Cthulhu_ »

arez wrote: post #68
jonatron wrote: post #4

Why is there gatekeeping of "professional" repairers and "repair services"? Why can't I as a consumer view a service manual and buy a part? If a washing machine costs £220, and a professional repair man costs £70 per hour, nobody will repair out of warranty.

Because not everything can be build to not be dangerous. The potential of electrocution, poisoning from a battery are all real. Not real for you because you're probably smart but you have to think about people who have no idea what they're doing and could get themselves gurt

This is anti-right to repair rhetoric; the potential of electrocution is similarly high when fixing your car or doing your home electrical.

Everyone should be able to fix their own things, AND have the choice to leave it to a professional. Only a few things are legally required to be done by professionals, things like asbestos removal.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#106

Post by mytailorisrich »

8372049 wrote: post #101
mytailorisrich wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Article 17 Right to property 1. Everyone has the right to own, use, dispose of and bequeath his or her lawfully acquired possessions. No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss. The use of property may be regulated by law in so far as is necessary fo…

My point is that this law grants rights to professional repairmen/service providers, not to consumers (or anyone else).

We have a right to repair and always had, as said.

Individuals have access in the same way as repairmen. It's already possible to source parts for most appliances as an individual. This should make it easier. Indeed, what is the difference between a consumer and a "professional repairman"? None apart from the fact that the latter is expected to have some competency and knowledge on how to get parts (which traditionally means a nondescript supplier in the local industrial area, which you're free to go to as well, there are also websites these days), but there is no magic licence that gives access to secret, restricted warehouses.

But the key is that Joe Public is not interested. If something breaks down they call a repairman or buy new. It's unrealistic or utopian to believe that people are interested. It's worded as targetting professionals because it is (somewhat) realistic and, I'm guessing, aimed at using the existing suppliers, not forcing availablity of parts in supermarkets.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#107

Post by mytailorisrich »

8372049 wrote: post #102
Jnr wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the fact that you own that thing and you can do whatever you want with it. The issue until now has been the availability of documentation (schematics, instructions, etc.). For example, in USA you can purchase Volvo service manual access as individual, but in EU it is not available at all.

Having a "right" to repair something doesn't really mean much if the vendors can legally keep documentation and spare parts from you, does it? The point is that this law does not give you any more rights on that matter, it only grants those rights to professionals. Furthermore, "you can do what you want with it" is misleading if doing what you want with it (e.g. repairing it) will have unreasonable consequences such…

> Furthermore, "you can do what you want with it" is misleading if doing what you want with it (e.g. repairing it) will have unreasonable consequences such as unfairly void warranties and so on.

Not it's not misleading. If it's under warranty it means they'll repair it for free. But equally it's quite reasonable for them to refuse (i.e. warranty is void) is you have fiddled with the device. A warranty is only a consumer protection against defects. That has nothing to do with your right to do anything you want with your property.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#108

Post by theodric »

Jnr wrote: post #88
theodric wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that isn't just some remote possibility, it's a likely outcome, because it's already a crapshoot with hardware/service availability across Europe. It was the case that for many years - might still be? - you couldn't buy Pixel phones in the Netherlands, which is how I ended up with a secondhand Verizon unit with a locked bootloader. In Switzerland, Digitec/Galaxus grey-markets many products which are otherwise not…

Switzerland is not in the EU. It is not part of the common market. They can not cut out Baltics, Netherlands, Sweden or any other members of the single market if they want to sell in any of the EU countries. That is the strength of the EU.

I'm sorry to disagree so bluntly, but: you are incorrect; they did, and they still do cut whole subregions out.

Example: Google has a Google (web)Store in 17 European countries [1] (including the UK and Switzerland), thus 15 of 27 EU countries, and that number does not include the Baltic countries of Estonia, Latvia, or Lithuania.

You can buy a Pixel in NL today, but you couldn't in 2019, even though Google had a web store there, because they didn't offer the product line in NL. I don't live in NL anymore, so I can't tell you what still isn't available there, but manufacturers refusing to bother with minority countries or languages (Dutch: "only" 24 million speakers in Europe) is and will continue to be a factor that prevents products from being localized and therefore offered in certain markets, European single market or not. Estonia has a population of ~1.3 million, so I can't imagine it's at the top of Google's priority list.

[1] https://store.google.com/regionpicker

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#109

Post by theshrike79 »

hollow-moe wrote: post #92
theshrike79 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Military Crates" (100% off the shelf Pelican cases used to transport fragile equipment across the world) contain very specific gear that's simple enough for anyone to use as long as they follow the instructions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdYzVaC6HSQ It's not like you can reliably tell someone to "just use your hair dryer to loosen the adhesive" and not expect huge amounts of breakage. The devices in the ki…

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't have the correct name for those. Still, they should design their devices to not require factory tools to be used by the average joe just to replace a part.

Please list here the devices you would let an Average Joe repair with off-the-shelf tools, preferably things with electronics. Most Joes can swap a broken handle to a broom.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#110

Post by theshrike79 »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #75
theshrike79 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Military Crates" (100% off the shelf Pelican cases used to transport fragile equipment across the world) contain very specific gear that's simple enough for anyone to use as long as they follow the instructions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdYzVaC6HSQ It's not like you can reliably tell someone to "just use your hair dryer to loosen the adhesive" and not expect huge amounts of breakage. The devices in the ki…

Apple should just sell those crates to anyone for a reasonable markup. Then those people can provide repair services to others independent of any oversight of Apple.

They do. You can buy the kits in the US, or rent it for I think $59. They do need a $1200 retainer that is refunded when the kit is returned.
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