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ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#101
post #69
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly makes Gaza that important

It's location in relation to Israel, the Mediterranean, Egypt, Suez canal, etc.

That doesn't really answer it?

I have yet to see how this little strip of land is so valuable to our interests

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#103
post #52

I have always suspected that part of the explanation for why these heinous things are occurring without any actual consequences is the larger military strategic situation. And I think that aspect of it being left out of the discussion is not helping. The Gaza area is strategically extremely significant for the US and other allies as well as their enemies. I suspect that this may be the reason why Israel is allowed to…

> Israeli and international media have reported that Netanyahu’s plan to continue allowing aid to reach Gaza through Qatar was in the hope that it might make Hamas an effective counterweight to the PA and prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. [1]

[1] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-fu...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#104
post #100
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've switched who has veto powers before. Soviet Union to Russia and the Republic of China to the People's Republic of China. There is no reason we can't replace another government.

Both of those cases involve the dissolution of the state holding the veto power. While dissolving the UK would be hilarious, I imagine they would veto it.

> Both of those cases involve the dissolution of the state holding the veto power

The Republic of China did not dissolve.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait is that a statement in support of Hamas? Or is it just unethical actions from Palestinians that get that treatment? Otherwise wouldn't an occupation followed by a blockade count as an unethical action that doesn't merit an ethical response?

The day ICJ goes after the political and financial supporters of Hamas and orders Hamas to stop using the people of Palestine as live shields to bear the brunt of the Israeli wrath will be the day when I will agree with the ICJ.

Regardless of agreement with the ICJ or not, the quasi-statehood of Palestine complicates how the ICJ can target Hamas, much less non-governmental actors like PIJ. To my knowledge, despite over two decades of issues related to state/non-state conflicts, the institutions that make and implement international law have yet to resolve how to handle these issues.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#108
post #2

One of the interesting reasons that the UN Security Council has vetoes is to prevent this sort of situation with Israel and Russia where the court appears powerless because the powers simply ignore the rulings, or retaliate against the court as Russia did this week [1] and the US would do so if any of their members were charged [2]. The UN's organizational structure reflects the (unfair but real) power imbalances in…

I think you're right about the reason for the veto powers of the world's super powers at the UN Security Council. It's a pragmatic, though unjust, way of ensuring that they participate in the UN at all. Unfortunately, even so, they often ignore UN Security Council decisions even if they happen to pass - like the USA recently allowing the Israel-Gaza ceasefire resolution to pass, then immediately turning around and ab…

The reason ICJ and ICC should be careful about giving decisions they cannot enforce is because over time it can undermine their credibility. Eventually you end up with these international bodies writing the equivalence of "open letters", which is fine I guess... but if those actions have no effect on outcomes it really starts to undermine the Institutionalist side of IR theory.

Personally, I find that unfortunate. While I think the realists are mostly right, it is helpful to have international legal institutions that maintain some degree of legitimacy and power for the purpose of norm-setting.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'I will agree with the court when it agrees with me and does what I want' is certainly a position. I'm sure most criminal suspects and their supporters [0] feel the same way, and would love for their personal judgement to be so favored. Putin, for example. 0: This is a sensitive topic, so to be extra clear, I am referring to the criminal case against Bibi in the ICC and the genocide case against Israel and Hamas in t…

It is easier to agree with judgements that help resolve conflicts. This one aims to deliver justice to victims on both sides, but doesn't resolve the core issue, doesn't even name all parties responsible for this bloodbath. Hamas is a proxy for other players and has been using Palestinians as a human shield in their fight against Israel. The core issue in that conflict is religion. It is used to derail any attempts a…

That's just revisionism though. The PLA had a lot of Christian Palestinians. It's just that as the conflict got more viscious, groups like Hamas started emerging and basing themselves on religion. Even then, Hamas isn't Al Qaeda. Its core is still based on Palestinian nationalism.

Israel also has tons and tons religious extremism but it wouldn't be fair to say that Israel fights for religious reasons. It just comes down to an extreme and probably unsolvable fixation on the land from both sides.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'I will agree with the court when it agrees with me and does what I want' is certainly a position. I'm sure most criminal suspects and their supporters [0] feel the same way, and would love for their personal judgement to be so favored. Putin, for example. 0: This is a sensitive topic, so to be extra clear, I am referring to the criminal case against Bibi in the ICC and the genocide case against Israel and Hamas in t…

It is easier to agree with judgements that help resolve conflicts. This one aims to deliver justice to victims on both sides, but doesn't resolve the core issue, doesn't even name all parties responsible for this bloodbath. Hamas is a proxy for other players and has been using Palestinians as a human shield in their fight against Israel. The core issue in that conflict is religion. It is used to derail any attempts a…

The preliminary judgement doesn't attempt to solve the entire Israel Palestine conflict. That is a future judgement, perhaps. But, the core issue that the preliminary judgement seeks to solve is the ongoing humanitarian catastrophe in Palestine. There is no ongoing humanitarian catastrophe in Israel, only a political one.

As the International Court of Justice points out, ending this humanitarian catastrophe is the most urgent priority – even more urgent than Bibi's desire to keep it going for his own reasons.

Thus, when Israel stops exploding Palestinian civilian men, women and children, stops exploding aid workers, stops blocking and exploding aid, stops destroying hospitals and patients and homes and families, stops displacing millions of civilians and takes proper responsibility for their health (Israel claims Gaza and the West Bank as theirs, after all, making Palestinians their charge), _that_ will be a time to discuss the issue of the broader conflict. But first we must stop the ongoing slaughter of innocent civilian Palestinians.

tl;dr: the world ending genocide of Palestinians > Israeli political desires.

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