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Scandal at America's top science fair

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Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#101

Post by dataflow »

rblatz wrote: post #61
tonymet wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anger is an appropriate reaction to dishonest behavior

If you or someone you know was in the science fair, or you were involved with it somehow. Maybe if you users just really invested in science fairs, those are all reasons to be angry. But if you are like most, this has no impact whatsoever on you or your life. At most this should provoke a shrug, a head shake, and a “that’s not right, I hope they do something.” From the vast majority of people.

> But if you are like most, this has no impact whatsoever on you or your life.

Uh, how do you so confidently say this? Do you have a crystal ball that can see into the future? You have no idea what the honest researchers might've gone on to accomplish in the future as a result of winning these competitions. One of them might literally change the world (including your life) for the better if they don't get discouraged along the way through witnessing fraudsters win like this. That's literally the point of these competitions -- to increase the chances of someone making a world-changing discovery or invention down the road. You should absolutely be angry if some of the brightest minds that could solve your current problems are actively being turned away from doing so.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#102

Post by imiric »

fergie wrote: post #88

We shouldn't internationally name and shame 17 year olds on HN.

Their name is already widespread online. A niche forum linking to an article that mentions it will hardly make an impact.

Besides, this behavior deserves shaming, revoking of their prize, and maybe even legal repercussions. A 17 year old is practically an adult in many jurisdictions, and if they're doing this at that age, they will only continue to commit fraud later. Ethics should be learned early on in life, and a 17 year old should know better. Let this be a lesson.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#103

Post by MerManMaid »

anon291 wrote: post #82
MerManMaid wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love where your head is at, but assuming we're talking about the united states, we literally just have enough money and resources to subsidize every kid who wants to attend college if we really wanted to. There are so many measurable long-term benefits to higher education both for the individual as well as the state that it's truly insane (to me any at least) with how unaccessible we've let it become.

We do have many good schools but unlike most places we also have extremely great schools. So while it's pretty easy to fund a good education for everyone, there's always going to be competition for the best.

>there's always going to be competition for the best.

Agreed but surely we could come up with a form of competition more fair than something which heavily favors the wealthy and/or familial alumni.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#104

Post by throwawaysleep »

puzzledobserver wrote: post #100
cbanek wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when I did science fair a long time ago and this was still true. I managed to get a few levels to the state science fair, but that was as far as I ever got. It was all about the best humidity conditions for popping popcorn with the fewest un-popped kernels and maximum volume. Some of the other projects that I saw were just amazing. Even if the parents didn't help many of the top projects involved thousands…

Understanding the effect of humidity on popcorn making sounds like a fascinating research project. Also one that I can honestly imagine a high school student undertaking. I would like to know how you controlled humidity, what your popcorn making apparatus was, what conclusions you drew, can it really make my popcorn better, so many questions. It seems so sad that we're taking projects that would be real fun---like yo…

Nobody would enter the science fair if it didn’t provide a benefit to winning.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#105

Post by cbanek »

puzzledobserver wrote: post #100
cbanek wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when I did science fair a long time ago and this was still true. I managed to get a few levels to the state science fair, but that was as far as I ever got. It was all about the best humidity conditions for popping popcorn with the fewest un-popped kernels and maximum volume. Some of the other projects that I saw were just amazing. Even if the parents didn't help many of the top projects involved thousands…

Understanding the effect of humidity on popcorn making sounds like a fascinating research project. Also one that I can honestly imagine a high school student undertaking. I would like to know how you controlled humidity, what your popcorn making apparatus was, what conclusions you drew, can it really make my popcorn better, so many questions. It seems so sad that we're taking projects that would be real fun---like yo…

Aww shucks, thank you for the kind words.

I'd count out little dixie cups of 100 popcorn kernels each. Then I would weigh them and put them all in the laundry room, where the humidity was pretty constant for different time periods over a few months. I took another set of batches and heated them up in the oven for different periods of time. Then re-weigh to see how much moisture was lost from the kernels. Seeing that the amount of unpopped kernels and volume was pretty consistent between the fast drying and slow drying allowed me to predict what it might be like for years old popcorn by really drying out the kernels. I also did some batches in a high humidity environment using a box with a humidifier and seeing the weight gain from the moisture.

Everything was popped in an air popper to give everything that was going to pop the time to pop. Then count the unpopped kernels!

The overall conclusion is popcorn is probably good for up to a year, and you can do a lot better than the microwave bags if you buy loose popcorn. Generally more moisture helped, but there was a sweet spot range where there's enough moisture to have the steam make it pop big and open, but too much humidity made the casing soft and it would have just a kernel that was cracked but didn't pop.

The hardest part was coming up with a precision scale that could do two digits of precision. Basically everyone that used them then were either drug dealers or people who bought actual lab equipment.

Thank you for coming to my popcorn ted talk.

Oh and I forgot, this was when I was in 5th grade. Good times.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#106

Post by azherebtsov »

anal_reactor wrote: post #73
tomcam wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. Said with kindness and discretion. Parental "help", e.g. doing most or all of the work for a science fair entry, is an open secret among Asian communities. It has been for decades. I know firsthand that many Chinese-born parents don't even view it as at all wrong…

Unfortunately, many cultures don't see honesty as a value on its own. In Polish there's a word "frajer" which is an offensive term for someone who got cheated or didn't take advantage of a situation. The logic is that, if the society as a whole is dishonest, then it doesn't make sense to be a martyr recognized by no-one, and it's better to make sure you take care of yourself first.

Reminds me about covid time math competition. It had to be taken online. Usually maximum score can be reached by less than a dozen of students, but when competition was online there were over 3000 math geniuses

https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/kraj/koronawirus-gigantyczne-rozb...

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#107

Post by rurban »

phreeza wrote: post #85
nsajko wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact: that's actually a Yiddish word: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/frajer English translation: dope, sucker. As in there's a sucker born every minute : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There%27s_a_sucker_born_every_...

Similar word also exists in standard German, where it originally meant "f*cker" but now just means a man who buys services from a prostitute.

Freier is not F*cker, just someone who needs to pay for sex, and is more independent then

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#108

Post by Terr_ »

puzzledobserver wrote: post #100
cbanek wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when I did science fair a long time ago and this was still true. I managed to get a few levels to the state science fair, but that was as far as I ever got. It was all about the best humidity conditions for popping popcorn with the fewest un-popped kernels and maximum volume. Some of the other projects that I saw were just amazing. Even if the parents didn't help many of the top projects involved thousands…

Understanding the effect of humidity on popcorn making sounds like a fascinating research project. Also one that I can honestly imagine a high school student undertaking. I would like to know how you controlled humidity, what your popcorn making apparatus was, what conclusions you drew, can it really make my popcorn better, so many questions. It seems so sad that we're taking projects that would be real fun---like yo…

> Understanding the effect of humidity on popcorn making sounds like a fascinating research project.

It may also manifest in microwaves which "Popcorn" settings (well, when it's not a fraudulent feature) where monitoring moisture changes can help detect when a bad is done. (The fall-off in popping noises being another metric.)

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#109

Post by watwut »

jjeaff wrote: post #93
EvgeniyZh wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just make tests hard enough so that you wouldn't need lottery

any tests will always be gamed by those with the resources to game them. either ethically (through special tutors and private programs) or unethically (cheating).

Paying tutors is not gaming the system. It is trying to learn effectively. I get that one wants to avoid creating a system where students are forced to spend too much time to learn purely for competition sake with no real practical need, but still.

The core issue is the pyramid shaped system where not being at one of these super places means that you are out of the competition for best work in general.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#110

Post by georgeburdell »

uneekname wrote: post #10

I was a finalist at the 2017 ISEF and it was quite an experience. A lot of super smart kids there and we all had fun living it up in Los Angeles. There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. No hate to high schoolers getting valuable STEM experience at local universities, but Regeneron should do more to diffe…

I never judged ISEF, but it was highly predictable that the kids with university mentorship made it from my circuit to there. Felt really unfair to the smart self-motivated kids who didn’t have connections. IMO the fairs should take a much harder stance on this, as it defeats the spirit of such competitions.
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