British engineering giant Arup revealed as $25M deepfake scam victim • Hacker News Board

Re: British engineering giant Arup revealed as $25M deepfake scam victim

#101

Post by lesuorac » Mon, May 20, 2024, 5:06 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #83

Rinzler89 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That should be classified as corruption/insider trading and punished as such. In my country that's how politicians and their friends get filthy rich. They know ahead of time where a new highway will be planned so they buy up all the rural land in that area for cheap so that the government will have to buy it from them at inflated prices to build the highway. Then, if a new government comes to power before the highway…

Insider trading is only when you're the insider. If you happen to walk past a geodetist (land surveyer?) on the street measuring something, ask him what'll be built there, and he tells you, you're still not the insider. Otherwise I agree, but in my country they do it differently,... government needs a building for X, someone close to someone in the government buys it for eg. 2mio eur, holds on it for a year or two, b…

Insider Trading is not even a crime (in the US). You can buy and sell stock for companies you have a relationship whether its employer/employee or a contractual relationship.

The actual crime is using "Material Nonpublic Information" [1] and it does not matter how you obtained it. So, asking an employee what they're building and they ignore the confidentiality agreement to tell you - Nonpublic. Stalking surveyers from public land to find the lots they're commonly around - public.

[1]: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/materialinsiderinformat....

Re: British engineering giant Arup revealed as $25M deepfake scam victim

#102

Post by lesuorac » Mon, May 20, 2024, 5:09 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #87

lesuorac wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your business is easily (commonly?) going to wire $25M across 15 transactions you should have a process in place. This is pretty much the whole point of multi-factor; although I'd argue you want the multi to really represent two people. The requester attests that "yes I want $25M" and the sender attests that "yes I am this person". The wild west ways of the banking sector is finally catching up to them.

I co-own a lot smaller company, so it was more in a range of 4 figures (euros), but more than once I've been in a situation where I've just signed a deal for some business with some company, called one of the 'hardware guys' from the car (external companies that eg. import hardware, are distributers for lenovo/dell, whatever), got an offer for a set of hardware that we needed (a few servers, etc.), forwarded the emai…

It would be nice if the article had additional details.

Did the email come from within their own domain? Like a properly set-up domain isn't going to let you spoof their employees so your emails to the CEO will be authoritative since they came from the correct domain (assume your CEO checks its ycombinator.com and not ycombimator.com).

At 4k though I suspect it's not that worthy of a target when you can do the same effort to net 25 million. Although I'm a bit surprised there isn't some internal page to add/remove the hardware requests so that it can be easily accounted for by accounting.

Re: British engineering giant Arup revealed as $25M deepfake scam victim

#103

Post by ahahahahah » Mon, May 20, 2024, 10:47 PM UTC

lesuorac wrote: post #101

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insider trading is only when you're the insider. If you happen to walk past a geodetist (land surveyer?) on the street measuring something, ask him what'll be built there, and he tells you, you're still not the insider. Otherwise I agree, but in my country they do it differently,... government needs a building for X, someone close to someone in the government buys it for eg. 2mio eur, holds on it for a year or two, b…

Insider Trading is not even a crime (in the US). You can buy and sell stock for companies you have a relationship whether its employer/employee or a contractual relationship. The actual crime is using "Material Nonpublic Information" [1] and it does not matter how you obtained it. So, asking an employee what they're building and they ignore the confidentiality agreement to tell you - Nonpublic. Stalking surveyers fro…

Warning: random anonymous commenters on the internet will confidently make claims about all kinds of legal matters. do not trust them.

> it does not matter how you obtained it

Yes, it does. It's just that it's more nuanced than the naive interpretation would lead you to believe.

> asking an employee what they're building and they ignore the confidentiality agreement to tell you

In the parent's description of this, it is almost certainly the case that you would have no duty of trust or confidence to the person that told you. In that case, it would be fine for you to trade on it (well, assuming you weren't otherwise restricted from such trading).

You can learn more here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/17/240.10b5-1

Re: British engineering giant Arup revealed as $25M deepfake scam victim

#104

Post by lesuorac » Mon, May 20, 2024, 10:56 PM UTC

ahahahahah wrote: post #103

lesuorac wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insider Trading is not even a crime (in the US). You can buy and sell stock for companies you have a relationship whether its employer/employee or a contractual relationship. The actual crime is using "Material Nonpublic Information" [1] and it does not matter how you obtained it. So, asking an employee what they're building and they ignore the confidentiality agreement to tell you - Nonpublic. Stalking surveyers fro…

Warning: random anonymous commenters on the internet will confidently make claims about all kinds of legal matters. do not trust them. > it does not matter how you obtained it Yes, it does. It's just that it's more nuanced than the naive interpretation would lead you to believe. > asking an employee what they're building and they ignore the confidentiality agreement to tell you In the parent's description of this, it…

Did you read your own link? It literally doesn't matter how you obtained it.

> (b) Awareness of material nonpublic information. Subject to the affirmative defenses in paragraph (c) of this section, a purchase or sale of a security of an issuer is on the basis of material nonpublic information for purposes of Section 10(b) and Rule 10b-5 if the person making the purchase or sale was aware of the material nonpublic information when the person made the purchase or sale.

Not a single word describing "how". Its just did you have nonpublic information.

Re: British engineering giant Arup revealed as $25M deepfake scam victim

#105

Post by jfoster » Tue, May 21, 2024, 5:37 AM UTC

dudinax wrote: post #85

jfoster wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit surprising that Aldi (and other supermarket chains) generally don't invest in residential real estate.

That really would be insider trading.

Does insider trading apply to real estate in the same way that it does to securities?

It doesn't seem so different to any mixed-use project where a developer might construct a tower that is partly residential, partly commercial. Pretty sure a lot of large companies purchase residential around any major new HQ they intend to open, too.

Re: British engineering giant Arup revealed as $25M deepfake scam victim

#106

Post by ahahahahah » Tue, May 21, 2024, 5:40 AM UTC

lesuorac wrote: post #104

ahahahahah wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Warning: random anonymous commenters on the internet will confidently make claims about all kinds of legal matters. do not trust them. > it does not matter how you obtained it Yes, it does. It's just that it's more nuanced than the naive interpretation would lead you to believe. > asking an employee what they're building and they ignore the confidentiality agreement to tell you In the parent's description of this, it…

Did you read your own link? It literally doesn't matter how you obtained it. > (b) Awareness of material nonpublic information. Subject to the affirmative defenses in paragraph (c) of this section, a purchase or sale of a security of an issuer is on the basis of material nonpublic information for purposes of Section 10(b) and Rule 10b-5 if the person making the purchase or sale was aware of the material nonpublic inf…

I don't know what to tell you. You continue to pick out sentences from sources and assume that either there is no relative context and just make up your own interpretation of it. You can't just read a line like that and make up your own meaning for it. You need to understand those in the context of the rules it's explaining (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/17/240.10b-5).

Maybe the law is too dense. Here's another analysis of the law for you to consider: https://federal-lawyer.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-the-federal...

From there:

"federal courts have interpreted Rule 10b-5 to allow for enforcement action when the following four elements are satisfied:

Breach of a fiduciary duty or violation of a relationship of “trust and confidence” in connection with the purchase or sale of a corporate security;

Use or possession of material nonpublic information in connection with the purchase or sale of a corporate security;

Knowing or reckless use of the material nonpublic information when purchasing or selling the corporate security at issue; and,

Reaping a personal benefit as a result of the purchase or sale."

And again, whether there's a duty of trust or confidence to the source of the information is a key factor in whether it can be traded on legally.

Re: British engineering giant Arup revealed as $25M deepfake scam victim

#107

Post by the8472 » Tue, May 21, 2024, 5:45 PM UTC

llamaimperative wrote: post #62

the8472 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Secret doesn't mean they can't use internal authenticated communication channels, at the very least to send a redacted confirmation.

Most people historically would consider a video call with the person to be sufficiently authenticated. Yeah, that has changed obviously, but it has changed like today .

No, not today. This has already happened a few times. And even before it happened people warned about this predictable use of the technology. There has been enough time to update policies. Even $employer already did, and I consider their security policies so-so.

Re: British engineering giant Arup revealed as $25M deepfake scam victim

#108

Post by michaelt » Wed, May 22, 2024, 10:44 AM UTC

lesuorac wrote: post #104

ahahahahah wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Warning: random anonymous commenters on the internet will confidently make claims about all kinds of legal matters. do not trust them. > it does not matter how you obtained it Yes, it does. It's just that it's more nuanced than the naive interpretation would lead you to believe. > asking an employee what they're building and they ignore the confidentiality agreement to tell you In the parent's description of this, it…

Did you read your own link? It literally doesn't matter how you obtained it. > (b) Awareness of material nonpublic information. Subject to the affirmative defenses in paragraph (c) of this section, a purchase or sale of a security of an issuer is on the basis of material nonpublic information for purposes of Section 10(b) and Rule 10b-5 if the person making the purchase or sale was aware of the material nonpublic inf…

The law is complicated, but basically if you're not an insider, information becomes public when you, a member of the public, notice it.

If you're at the airport near google HQ and you the CEO of a struggling AI startup arrive and hail a taxi to the google offices, and you think an acquisition might be on the cards? You're free to trade on that information, anyone in the airport could have recognised that guy.

Some complexity arises because insiders aren't allowed to tip you off. If you're golf buddies with the CEO of a struggling AI startup, and he tells you he made a business trip yesterday and Moffett Field is a great airport? If you figure an acquisition is on the cards and trade on that, it's insider trading.

Re: British engineering giant Arup revealed as $25M deepfake scam victim

#109

Post by ajsnigrutin » Wed, May 22, 2024, 10:54 AM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #95

jfoster wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit surprising that Aldi (and other supermarket chains) generally don't invest in residential real estate.

Over half of Aldi's locations actually belong to them [1]. Keeps them safe from the usual landlord racket. [1] https://www.lebensmittelzeitung.net/handel/nachrichten/immob...

I think op meant more in a way, where Aldi would buy apartments near their new store, since having an aldi nearby raises realestate prices (in some specific cases of course).