Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight • Hacker News Board

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#101

Post by srj » Sat, Apr 20, 2024, 7:13 PM UTC

I find you can get a good idea of what's going on from reading between the lines of Wyden's statements. As a member of the intelligence committee he cannot directly disclose the operational details, but you can look at where he's concerned.

From the CNN article on this:

>> Another amendment at issue was from Democratic Sen. Ron Wyden of Oregon, a member of the Intelligence Committee. His amendment, which was co-sponsored by several of the most liberal Democrats and conservative Republicans in the chamber, would strike a new part of the program that he argued would lead every day Americans into helping the government spy if they have “access to equipment that is being or may be used to transmit or store wire or electronic communications.”

On the face of it, any cellphone or smartwatch seems to fit that definition. They could be converting everything into a listening device, recording all of it, and then making it available to intel officers only when they query for it and can argue one party is a foreign national.

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#102

Post by araes » Sat, Apr 20, 2024, 7:18 PM UTC

Other info: This reauthorization of FISA includes the Turner-Himes amendment introduced by Reps. Mike Turner (R-OH) and Jim Himes (D-CT). (introduced House, passed Senate)

The Turner-Himes amendment expands the definition of “electronic communications service (ECS) provider” to include “any service provider” that has “access to equipment that is being or may be used to transmit or store wire or electronic communications.” (except not personal dwellings and restaurants)

Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR) comment: “It allows the government to force any American who installs, maintains, or repairs anything that transmits or stores communications to spy on the government’s behalf. That means anyone with access to a server, a wire, a cable box, a wifi router, or a phone. It would be secret: the Americans receiving the government directives would be bound to silence, and there would be no court oversight.”

EFF comment: “The Justice Department is playing word games when it says the amendment doesn’t change the ‘structure’ of 702 because the law prohibits targeting entities inside the United States. Garland’s pledge, isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on; if this amendment becomes law, the DOJ can and almost certainly will rely on it to conscript other providers who fit within its very broad scope.”

Notably, Trump doesn't like FISA? (removed yelly caps) “Kill FISA, it was illegally used against me, and many others. They spied on my campaign!!!”

Pelosi's speech was amusing: “I don’t have the time right now, but if members want to know I’ll tell you how we could have been saved from 9/11 if we didn’t have to have the additional warrants.”

https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/18/24134196/senate-cloture-v...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/apr/12/fisa-surveil...

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#103

Post by e40 » Sat, Apr 20, 2024, 7:31 PM UTC

soraminazuki wrote: post #69

geuis wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I obviously can't guess your age, but I'm gonna wager you weren't around much prior to 9/11. The world was getting on quite well without massive surveillance creep, and none of the stuff FISA has done in the last 23 years would have stopped it. The authorities already had all the info they needed back then and just didn't act on it.

Agree with the sentiment, but spying capabilities have been abused before FISA, just ask Martin Luther King Jr. So I don't think things were particularly fine before 9/11 either. It's just that technological advancements have made abuse on a mass scale possible for the first time in human history. AFAICT surveillance used to be much more targeted and labor intensive. That all changed after 9/11.

I didn't downvote you, btw (I upvoted you). I think MLK Jr's problems with the government weren't traditional spying, they were more harassment of government employees acting on their own because they were bigots. The organized government actions that did happen, IIRC, were in places were the local government was highly corrupt and infiltrated by the KKK.

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#104

Post by squigz » Sat, Apr 20, 2024, 7:35 PM UTC

soraminazuki wrote: post #96

nyokodo wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> crackpots talking about a uniparty, deep state vs the people, etc It’s not controversial to suggest that the interests of the political class, the special interests that fund their campaigns, and Washington bureaucrats differ from the interests of the public at large. You don’t need to evoke deep state conspiracies to explain nefarious coordination because when career and monetary incentives align then bills like t…

Yep, this trend of dismissing undemocratic power structures as conspiracy theories is deeply troubling. Important issues such as surveillance, censorship, and the military-industrial complex have a long history and are extensively documented. Yet it's hard to bring these issues up today without being labeled a far right conspiracist. It wasn't always like this. Many have agreed these were legitimate issues during the…

> Yet it's hard to bring these issues up today without being labeled a far right conspiracist.

This really isn't all that true in my experience. And, I mean, look at the discussion here... Maybe consider the people you hang around with?

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#105

Post by AmVess » Sat, Apr 20, 2024, 7:51 PM UTC

borkt wrote: post #59

geuis wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I obviously can't guess your age, but I'm gonna wager you weren't around much prior to 9/11. The world was getting on quite well without massive surveillance creep, and none of the stuff FISA has done in the last 23 years would have stopped it. The authorities already had all the info they needed back then and just didn't act on it.

FISA has been in existence since 1978. It did not prevent 9/11, so honestly your comment undersells how worthless the program has been in light of the constitutional freedoms we willingly cede in reauthorizing it. The fact is though it remains law and the officials we elected feel the value is worth it. I hope its being done solely based on the benefits it provides us as a whole and is not being used for self-serving…

These laws aren't about protecting America and its citizens, but rather as means to control them.

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#106

Post by soraminazuki » Sat, Apr 20, 2024, 8:06 PM UTC

twoodfin wrote: post #99

soraminazuki wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's baffling to many people how FISA is even a thing. To a layperson, the Fourth Amendment leaves no room for a rubber stamp court authorizing mass surveillance. And no one except politicians and bureaucrats are buying the argument that this is somehow targeted surveillance. Also, free nations should have higher standards than "Not a citizen? Too bad, anything goes."

This is not complicated: If you run a telegraph wire between El Paso and Juárez, the executive has the Constitutional authority to tap it to intercept communication to or from a non-citizen not in the United States, warrant-free. Congress can regulate the process that must be followed, the documentation that must be made, even require judicial review at the program level to ensure it doesn’t also record traffic that…

Where do I even start? Let's first reiterate that even when it's technically legal to screw over non-citizens, it doesn't make it right. That's not the standard expected of a free nation.

But let's ignore that for a moment and move on to the next point. Your example is still hoovering up communications from citizens who are supposed to be protected by due process of law. En masse. How does this not run afoul of the law?

The problem is compounded by the fact that the internet blurs geographical borders. Wholly domestic communications can and does end up crossing borders. Also, I'd bet a large part of our communications aren't even between people. The majority of the traffic likely are sent to or from computer programs. They happen without most people even realizing it, but contains highly personal information. The simple telegraph analogy doesn't translate well to the internet.

What's more, there's currently no meaningful system in place to prevent abuse. And no, a rubber stamp court authorizing dragnet surveillance isn't it.

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#107

Post by Zancarius » Sat, Apr 20, 2024, 8:07 PM UTC

ein0p wrote: post #68

Only one thing can make these people work past midnight: abusing the American public. “Representation”, my ass. None of them represents me or anyone I know.

Agreed, but the cynical side of me thinks that they are representing their constituents. It's just that neither you nor me are their constituents. They pay lip service only during an election year.

I'm politically very conservative. I hate every single one of the Republicans. They claim to want smaller government and less intrusion and then vote for... bigger government, more intrusion, and endless wars.

I still vote, though. Mostly, at this point, it feels like an act of protest more than anything.

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#108

Post by jrochkind1 » Sat, Apr 20, 2024, 8:08 PM UTC

twoodfin wrote: post #99

soraminazuki wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's baffling to many people how FISA is even a thing. To a layperson, the Fourth Amendment leaves no room for a rubber stamp court authorizing mass surveillance. And no one except politicians and bureaucrats are buying the argument that this is somehow targeted surveillance. Also, free nations should have higher standards than "Not a citizen? Too bad, anything goes."

This is not complicated: If you run a telegraph wire between El Paso and Juárez, the executive has the Constitutional authority to tap it to intercept communication to or from a non-citizen not in the United States, warrant-free. Congress can regulate the process that must be followed, the documentation that must be made, even require judicial review at the program level to ensure it doesn’t also record traffic that…

I don't understand the argument that it couldn't require a warrant. The argument is simply that the executive branch has a constitutional right to wiretap without a warrant, unless the the constitution forbids it?

There is some judicial oversight in the FISA court of course. What's the argument for why congress can legislate that, but not a more typical warrant?

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#109

Post by Zancarius » Sat, Apr 20, 2024, 8:11 PM UTC

squigz wrote: post #104

soraminazuki wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, this trend of dismissing undemocratic power structures as conspiracy theories is deeply troubling. Important issues such as surveillance, censorship, and the military-industrial complex have a long history and are extensively documented. Yet it's hard to bring these issues up today without being labeled a far right conspiracist. It wasn't always like this. Many have agreed these were legitimate issues during the…

> Yet it's hard to bring these issues up today without being labeled a far right conspiracist. This really isn't all that true in my experience. And, I mean, look at the discussion here... Maybe consider the people you hang around with?

It's definitely who you hang around with, but I think how the conversation is approached also dictates outcome. Talk about a political ruling class with most people, and they'll look at you as though you grew a third eyeball. Talk about the Dems and Repubs being out of touch with the average person due to the insulative effect of DC, and they'll usually agree.

You can generally convey the same idea gently as long as you hedge your phrasing somewhat. Making it sound like a wacky accusation comes off sounding, well, wacky.

Re: Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance program after midnight

#110

Post by twoodfin » Sat, Apr 20, 2024, 8:13 PM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #108

twoodfin wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not complicated: If you run a telegraph wire between El Paso and Juárez, the executive has the Constitutional authority to tap it to intercept communication to or from a non-citizen not in the United States, warrant-free. Congress can regulate the process that must be followed, the documentation that must be made, even require judicial review at the program level to ensure it doesn’t also record traffic that…

I don't understand the argument that it couldn't require a warrant. The argument is simply that the executive branch has a constitutional right to wiretap without a warrant, unless the the constitution forbids it? There is some judicial oversight in the FISA court of course. What's the argument for why congress can legislate that, but not a more typical warrant?

For the same reason Congress can’t require the President to get the approval of the Supreme Court before he vetoes a bill: Our Constitution gives powers to the executive that cannot be usurped or overruled by Congress, notably in this context to conduct the national defense and foreign affairs.

The FISA court exists to ensure that the executive is not operating outside his Constitutional authority, not as a gatekeeper for use of that authority at all in any instance.