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EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

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Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#101

Hybrids were mostly a tax scam in my opinion. In Germany until recently you could get a 6,000-8,000 € subsidy on these cars and when leasing them through a company you got a really nice tax reduction from 1% of the list price to 0,25 %, which amounts to several thousand Euros per year as well. Not to forget the vehicle tax was drastically reduced as well. Overall mostly very affluent people bought these cars, and the…

[deleted]

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#102
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made some back-of-the-napkin calculations, and based on the electric range and outside charging prices it didn't seem like electric cars are really that much cheaper. The only time they clearly come out on top is when you can charge them at home at off peak hours, at least around here. PHEVs are in an even worse situation because even though they have a small battery, they need to be charged for quite some time, so…

Your back-of-napkin calculations must assume values for the price of gas and the price of electricity. If, like in CA, gas is $5.46/gallon (ref. https://gasprices.aaa.com/ ) and electricity is $0.19/kWh (ref. https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/ ) then the equation looks very different from if gas is $4.74/gallon and electricity is $0.33/kWh like HI.

Those electricity prices are way off for California. PGE, which serves most of the state, charges over $0.30/kwh even off peak with a EV focused rate plan. Peak rates on any plan are much, much higher.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me that's a really weird analogy. Nobody would think about putting a gasoline tank and pump in their garage ... There's plenty of public charging infrastructure in Europe. Fast charging on the highways, slow charging in living areas. Even many supermarkets offer fast chargers now, so that during your grocery shopping trip you can get most of your charging needs covered. There's plenty of opportunities to charge yo…

Plenty? It really depends on the location. There are only parking space with charging available for 2 cars in a 4km radius in my neighborhood. Charging that is anyway nit cost effective. YMMV but afaik in europe there are still plenty of places where using an EV wouldn't be practical at all, even in urban area. The only EV that I am considering is the Silence S01 moped and the reason is that its battery can be unmoun…

>There are only parking space with charging available for 2 cars in a 4km radius in my neighborhood. Charging that is anyway not cost effective.

I wonder if the two things are related. There are hundreds of EV chargers within 4km of where I live and on average they are 20-50% cheaper than charging at home (with the exception of fast chargers, which are pretty expensive).

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#104
post #9

Personal anecdotes ahaead: I'm German. My grandpa was an electrical engineer. He is very enthusiastic about his PHEV and talks about it alot. He bought one because not only is he interested, but also PHEV sales got heavily subsidized (i think like 6000€ or smth) and so many people bought one in his area as well. Apparently, a surprising amount of old middle class German people bought PHEVs and literally never charge…

After working in tech (and providing tech support and tutoring), this seems like a typical non-tech-savvy user behavior: Just do what is familiar.

So they got a good deal on a car. It's a car and it drives, and you fill it with gas. It already works, the effort to learn and use the car for more potential is (probably) not worth it to the owner.

You could see the same pattern with people who use office applications on a daily basis but don't bother learning functionality (or even shortcuts).

Yet I am not trying to push the "users are dumb" stereotype, because everyone has their own blind spots in knowledge.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#105
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your back-of-napkin calculations must assume values for the price of gas and the price of electricity. If, like in CA, gas is $5.46/gallon (ref. https://gasprices.aaa.com/ ) and electricity is $0.19/kWh (ref. https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/ ) then the equation looks very different from if gas is $4.74/gallon and electricity is $0.33/kWh like HI.

Those electricity prices are way off for California. PGE, which serves most of the state, charges over $0.30/kwh even off peak with a EV focused rate plan. Peak rates on any plan are much, much higher.

My basic point is that "is a PHEV/EV good value?" is a very local question since the economics of electric power and gasoline are local as well.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#106
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is simply a lie. And these are probably accounts for opinion making. It is an EU-wide regulation from 2019, which is now being implemented by all EU states [0]. In addition, the way in which plastic waste is counted is also prescribed throughout the EU [1]. [0]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2019/904/oj [1]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...

ahh since i just poured a massive amount of milk onto the table, exactly due to this - what are you talking about? This reg is in place, now.

You didn't read my linked sources, otherwise you would have recognized which part of the statement I'm referring to.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#107
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty? It really depends on the location. There are only parking space with charging available for 2 cars in a 4km radius in my neighborhood. Charging that is anyway nit cost effective. YMMV but afaik in europe there are still plenty of places where using an EV wouldn't be practical at all, even in urban area. The only EV that I am considering is the Silence S01 moped and the reason is that its battery can be unmoun…

>There are only parking space with charging available for 2 cars in a 4km radius in my neighborhood. Charging that is anyway not cost effective. I wonder if the two things are related. There are hundreds of EV chargers within 4km of where I live and on average they are 20-50% cheaper than charging at home (with the exception of fast chargers, which are pretty expensive).

Even if the price were right, would I want to have to check every couple of hours if the parking space is available for me to charge my vehicle? These parking spaces are mostly used by visitors because EVs aren't convenient enough for locals.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#108
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look on the actual data, it's the other way around. Is this just Russian opinion making? 1. The Greens didn't push to close the nuclear power plants alone: The phase-out of nuclear energy in Germany was first regulated in the year 2000 under the red-green federal government (Schröder I Cabinet) through a contract known as the Nuclear Consensus between the Federal Republic and various operating companies. In 20…

>Is this just Russian opinion making? uhh my comment is objectively anti russian and accuses the greens of playing into their hands. And I don't see how your comment refutes what I said. If anything it makes the case that not just the greens are anti nuclear but Germans in general have lost the plot and gone anti nuclear. Probably not the point you wanted to make, but there it is.

It was exactly the point I wanted to make. And you proofed it. Let me cite myself:

„1. The Greens didn't push to close the nuclear power plants alone:“

But: You think

„The same Germany where the "Green party" pushed to close nuclear power plants and buy more gas from the Russians. Truly clown world.“

is good style and promotes factual, also political, discussion? I believe that it is not and thus promotes the division and the intensification of the discourse instead of factual discussion. And Russia and the AfD are happy about that. Russia would very much like to sell a lot of gas to all of us. Russia would very much like to continue to act as one of the main suppliers and main players in nuclear energy, which is why Russia also has something against renewable energies. But the division of Europe is more valuable.

So, at the end, you did them a favor.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could anything be "partial zero"? lol

0 for some pollutants but not others. If you capture & catalyze all the SO2 in the exhaust but nothing else, that's a "partial zero emission vehicle".

That's not partial zero in my book. It's at best "50% polluting" (making up the expected value here, but you get the point). Or "less polluting".. anything but "partial zero"

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

0 for some pollutants but not others. If you capture & catalyze all the SO2 in the exhaust but nothing else, that's a "partial zero emission vehicle".

That's not partial zero in my book. It's at best "50% polluting" (making up the expected value here, but you get the point). Or "less polluting".. anything but "partial zero"

I think of it as a vector quantity with one (or more) components zero, and the rest nonzero. I agree it's a stupid name, but at least there's some reason to it. Misleading, but not entirely inaccurate.
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