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What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

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Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#101
post #12

I was a public school teacher that worked in a district that attempted to measure teacher value add. There was limited pay for performance based on that metric. And the district I worked in was majority racial minority and majority living in poverty. "Using the expiration of preexisting collective bargaining agreements as a source of exogenous variation in the timing of changes in pay, I show that the introduction of…

What if the standardized tests aren't administered by the teacher? That seems like it would be an easy solution to get around the cheating problem. As for teaching to the test, what's the real downfall of doing that? Colleges use standardized test scores as the biggest or one of the biggest criteria in admission.

> What if the standardized tests aren't administered by the teacher? That seems like it would be an easy solution to get around the cheating problem.

In order for the test scores to be granular enough to be used as measure of performance of individual teachers, the testing would have to be done fairly often. The schools and school districts that are already lacking funds for basic stuff like maintenance and teacher and staff salaries would have hard time to pay an additional subject to administer the test.

With the frequency and volume of testing, it would likely be too costly to do the testing in an external testing facility (which most districts do not have), so it would have to be done on site. I remember my kids telling me that every time before they took a standardized test (it happens once a year around here), the teachers told them basically "we cannot give you the answers, but look around, the answers may already be there, there may be a poster hanging on the wall or something else like that that may be helpful."

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#102
I can not overstate how much I love LLMs. The important bits for those of us with a busy day:

  The key findings of the research include:


  Higher Salaries for High-Performing Teachers: Districts that adopted the flexible pay scheme offered higher salaries to high-performing teachers, which attracted quality teachers from districts that did not adopt the scheme.
  
  Improved Teacher Quality: The introduction of performance-based pay resulted in improved overall teacher quality in districts that adopted the new pay scheme. This was due to both the attraction of high-quality teachers and increased effort from current teachers.

  Enhanced Student Achievement: There was a noticeable improvement in student achievement in districts with flexible pay schemes. The increase in teacher quality and effort directly contributed to better academic outcomes for students.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't assess teacher quality. Eliminate poverty by eliminating capitalism, a system that literally depends on it.

> Eliminate poverty by eliminating capitalism, a system that literally depends on it. Could you give an example of where this has worked?

If you define pverty as earning less than 15 % of the median country wage and then pay 90 % of people 2 dollars a day and 10 % of the people infinity dollars a day you have no poverty by definition. Some variation of that is how every other system of government/economy has beaten poverty. There is no point engaging these people unless you are a psychiatrist trying to help them with their mental illness.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#104
post #12

I was a public school teacher that worked in a district that attempted to measure teacher value add. There was limited pay for performance based on that metric. And the district I worked in was majority racial minority and majority living in poverty. "Using the expiration of preexisting collective bargaining agreements as a source of exogenous variation in the timing of changes in pay, I show that the introduction of…

The question is whether test scores as a measure of teacher quality is better than the next best alternative. The authors suggest that this would be seniority, but it could also be subjective measures like complaints from parents, likeability, and office politics.

I agree that there are problems with test-based evaluation, but overall I believe it's the least bad solution. It gives teachers a tangible incentive to figure out why what they're doing may not be working and try something different.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#105
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the standardized tests aren't administered by the teacher? That seems like it would be an easy solution to get around the cheating problem. As for teaching to the test, what's the real downfall of doing that? Colleges use standardized test scores as the biggest or one of the biggest criteria in admission.

> As for teaching to the test, what's the real downfall of doing that? This comment is a perfect encapsulation of AI hype. Recitation is not competence. It doesn't matter if Bobby can say "4" when I say "What is 2 + 2?". What matters is if Bobby can add.

Test questions are written to test varying levels of competence from basic recall to true mastery. It's partially why so many people hate word problems, they don't actually understand the concepts. Many others just can't read.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#106
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for teaching to the test, what's the real downfall of doing that? This comment is a perfect encapsulation of AI hype. Recitation is not competence. It doesn't matter if Bobby can say "4" when I say "What is 2 + 2?". What matters is if Bobby can add.

Test questions are written to test varying levels of competence from basic recall to true mastery. It's partially why so many people hate word problems, they don't actually understand the concepts. Many others just can't read.

Test questions can be written to assess true mastery, although it's not so easy as you're trying to make it sound... especially if you want the test to take a sane amount of time, be consistently gradable by different graders, and have any kind of reasonable signal to noise ratio. But sure, you can get there, or at least go a long way toward it.

If you try to actually create tests that way, you will discover that the institutions and political atmosphere around you will punish you harshly. It's "unfair" to give a test that you can't pass by memorizing things, you see. And the people who will ultimately make the decisions about what you're allowed to do with your test are rarely going to care much about actual mastery, and often wouldn't be able to recognize mastery if they did care.

In practice, standardized tests are always going to be easily gamed, so if you make people's and institutions' rewards dependent on them, you will end up diverting more time, energy, and other resources away from actually teaching mastery and into meaningless gaming.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#107
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a teacher knows or suspects what questions will be on the test, they can drill their students to memorize the answers the week before the test. That's cheating and it doesn't matter who proctors the test.

I once taught a class for teachers and after so many failed to be able to apply the quadratic equation, I told him that it would be the bonus question for the next test. After so many then failed I told them that just writing the formula would be the bonus question on the next test. Very few people got the bonus question. In order to drill students to memorize, that students have to be present enough and interested e…

It may be that the manner in which you are teaching that topic is itself failing. Your students don’t understand, investigate how to improve your approach in explaining which results in them understanding. Decompose the steps to see where that understanding is not happening.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#108
post #5

I saw this discussed on Marginal Revolution today as well. My main question is whether the gains are fundamentally zero-sum, at least in the short term. Some districts implement flexible pay and some don’t, and then the best teachers move to get paid more. And the places that get left behind…? In the long-run, increased pay ought to lead to more high-quality teachers entering the profession. But in the short term, th…

>And the places that get left behind…? Think of it as government-performance based teaching quality variations. >But in the short term, this scheme seems likely to redistribute talent in ways that reinforce existing patterns of inequality. Only if disadvantaged districts are less likely to switch to performance-based pay. What is the basis for thinking this will happen?

see sister comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40012447

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eliminate poverty by eliminating capitalism, a system that literally depends on it. Could you give an example of where this has worked?

If you define pverty as earning less than 15 % of the median country wage and then pay 90 % of people 2 dollars a day and 10 % of the people infinity dollars a day you have no poverty by definition. Some variation of that is how every other system of government/economy has beaten poverty. There is no point engaging these people unless you are a psychiatrist trying to help them with their mental illness.

[dead]

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eliminate poverty by eliminating capitalism, a system that literally depends on it. Could you give an example of where this has worked?

If you define pverty as earning less than 15 % of the median country wage and then pay 90 % of people 2 dollars a day and 10 % of the people infinity dollars a day you have no poverty by definition. Some variation of that is how every other system of government/economy has beaten poverty. There is no point engaging these people unless you are a psychiatrist trying to help them with their mental illness.

Even easier than that, simply define poverty as a property of capitalism and if anybody says that poverty also exists in your communist society, you throw them into the gulag for spreading capitalist propaganda.
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