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Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

learncodethehardway.org

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Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#101

Post by hanibash »

Zed I think your self-identity point is spot on. Time and time again we see that the greatest minds don't pigeon hole themselves into a single category. Paul Graham says it himself --

"What hackers and painters have in common is that they're both makers. Along with composers, architects, and writers, what hackers and painters are trying to do is make good things."

Anyone who is a maker should be interested in learning to code. I strongly believe that although programming is a specialized discipline now, in the coming years we will see that people who have skills in both coding and other fields will come out the furthest ahead.

Telling beginners not to learn how to code is like telling people they shouldn't learn how to paint or learn to play an instrument. Coding is a beautiful and fulfilling activity which no one should be barred from.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#102

Post by B-Con »

zedshaw wrote: post #85
B-Con wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible post. He wildly exaggerates Jeff's statements and completely misses the point of it, which was not in any way "no one should learn to program", but rather "don't learn specialized skill sets you don't need". Jeff's point focused on whether programming was the best path to solving a problem for most people, and whether they would actually gain anything from it. His main argument was that programming…

The title says "Please don't learn to code". Holy crap, how can so many smart people be so incredibly bad at reading comprehension.

That is an interesting question, because so many people claim to have read his post yet have no idea what he actually said. Please re-read it.

The post title was an exaggeration, like almost all of his blog post titles are. If you actually read the content of the post, you realize that he clearly wasn't actually saying.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#103

Post by zedshaw »

B-Con wrote: post #84
zedshaw wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, these "weeder" courses actually make for intellectually lazy education. Rather than study how best to teach a subject so everyone has a chance regardless of initial ability, you design curriculum that only works for naturals. But, ultimately, it's not the teacher's right to decide who's "passionate" enough or not. Trust me, if my teachers had any say in my success I'd be digging ditches.

> Well, these "weeder" courses actually make for intellectually lazy education. I disagree. In order to do well at a subject in an academic setting, you need the upper classmen to be very comfortable with the basics. "Weeder" courses are always (almost always?) in subjects that are basic foundations for the field. The idea is that if you can't pass it, the things that build on it aren't going to make it any easier. A…

Well you can disagree, but nearly every other subject disagrees with you. They always have two tracks for their subject, one for people who know next to nothing, and one for people who are advanced and might become professionals. In some cases the people from the beginning classes (the 101s) then go on to become professionals.

In addition to that, many other subjects have branches devoted to studying the best way to teach that subject. Computer science is largely missing this, baring some work at universities like CMU and parts of Europe (that I know of).

Until computer science actually starts actively researching how to teach computers science and can produce real research (not their weird non-statistics non-experiments) then these kinds of claims are unfounded. In that event I have to rely on similar research from things like Math and Physics Education which both disagree with you.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#104

Post by Raphael_Amiard »

B-Con wrote: post #75
cletus wrote: post #41

Great post. I have an awful lot of respect for Zed Shaw and what he's done (and, no, not for "Rails is a Ghetto" but for his directed learning programming books, which IMHO are probably the best approach for newcomers). I'm disappointed that Jeff has taken what is essentially an elitist and exclusionary view. Programming is not a zero sum game. Every new programmer isn't a threat to your livelihood and your existence…

This is a terrible post. He wildly exaggerates Jeff's statements and completely misses the point of it, which was not in any way "no one should learn to program", but rather "don't learn specialized skill sets you don't need". Jeff's point focused on whether programming was the best path to solving a problem for most people, and whether they would actually gain anything from it. His main argument was that programming…

> "don't learn specialized skill sets you don't need"

Even that would be stupid. You probably don't know if you need it before you know it.

Also it could be argued that everybody "needs" to know how to code, in that pretty much everyone spends a good portion of their lives in front of a computer, and knowing how to automate its behavior would make life easier for a lot of people.

The funny thing is, pretty much everyone needs plumbing skills too. That doesn't mean everyone is gonna learn them, or should become a master plumber. But knowing a thing or two about it certainly can't hurt.

Zed doesn't exaggerate Jeff's statements. The original statements are already exaggerated and caricatural, portraying reality as a binary thing : either you can program, or you can't. Things are not that simple

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#105

Post by dimmuborgir »

Zed Shaw is the Nietzsche of hackers (and beyond)! Some Nietzsche's quotes I think relevant to this post and Zed's philosophy in general:

"Nothing is true, everything is permitted."

"Everything is human, all too human."

"I mistrust all systematizers and avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of personal integrity."

"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."

"Who cares if I am right! I am much too right. And he who laughs best today will also laugh last."

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#106

Post by laughinghan »

zedshaw wrote: post #85
B-Con wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible post. He wildly exaggerates Jeff's statements and completely misses the point of it, which was not in any way "no one should learn to program", but rather "don't learn specialized skill sets you don't need". Jeff's point focused on whether programming was the best path to solving a problem for most people, and whether they would actually gain anything from it. His main argument was that programming…

The title says "Please don't learn to code". Holy crap, how can so many smart people be so incredibly bad at reading comprehension.

Yes, it does. Jeff's article then proceeds to present a very reasonable argument to consider for why you might not want to code, specifically, there are many useful skills in the world and maybe there's one that would serve you better than coding. Your article completely ignores Jeff's article and presents what amounts to an ad hominem attack on Jeff, claiming he's trying to make beginners feel like losers.

Do you honestly believe so many people on here are so bad at reading comprehension that they can't parse the phrase "Please don't learn to code"? I think you're smarter than that. I think we both know that's a straw man. What actually happened was that many people read Jeff's post and realized that the title "Please don't learn to code" was not a summary of his article, it was a title, presenting the highlight of his article, which is that there are some people in some situations in which he'd tell them, "don't learn to code, learn this other thing that will be more useful to you".

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#107

Post by keithpeter »

Produce wrote: post #87
nkassis wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See this is the crux of what I thought this movement was about. Logical and Algorithmic thinking is what people should be getting from learning to code. This is a fundamental thing like critical thinking which schools have a really hard time making kids learn. Plus I have to agree with you that today I wouldn't recommend my path to others trying to learn to program. It wouldn't make any sense.

I have to disagree with the sentiment that programming has anything to do with logical thinking. You can write awesome programs on feeling alone. For example, when I'm debugging, I don't think, I simply let my mind explore the catacombs and the solution bubbles up from my subconscious. The benefit which logic brings to the table is being able to communicate your ideas clearly. Critical thinking is useful but it's not…

"For example, when I'm debugging, I don't think, I simply let my mind explore the catacombs and the solution bubbles up from my subconscious."

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/5896.html

Get a copy from your nearest library. You are operating in the same mode as most creative mathematicians. My girlfriends at University had to cope with a shorthand pad and pen on the bedside, and being totally ignored for 24 hours at a stretch when the ideas came.

The subconscious only works when fully primed by the way. You must know your code very well for the links to 'bubble up' like that.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#108

Post by zedshaw »

pg wrote: post #47
zedshaw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because that's how life goes. I'm not going to attack the logic of an article that is illogical, I'm going to talk about the hypocrisy of the person writing it. The human stuff matters much more than the fantasy world of "logic".

I'm not going to attack the logic of an article that is illogical It seems to me that is the exactly the type of article you'd want to attack in that way. If you won't attack arguments with faulty logic on logical grounds, and you can't (correctly) attack arguments with correct logic on logical grounds, that implies you can never refute anyone logically, and that all your arguments will be ad hominems and suchlike.

I would rather write the books that disprove it than waste my time debating it pointlessly. Thus the reason why I'm now going to go work on my C book.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#109

Post by zedshaw »

B-Con wrote: post #102
zedshaw wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The title says "Please don't learn to code". Holy crap, how can so many smart people be so incredibly bad at reading comprehension.

That is an interesting question, because so many people claim to have read his post yet have no idea what he actually said. Please re-read it. The post title was an exaggeration, like almost all of his blog post titles are. If you actually read the content of the post, you realize that he clearly wasn't actually saying.

I did read it, and he's wrong. That's why I wrote mine.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#110

Post by yo-mf »

demian wrote: post #68
cletus wrote: post #41

Great post. I have an awful lot of respect for Zed Shaw and what he's done (and, no, not for "Rails is a Ghetto" but for his directed learning programming books, which IMHO are probably the best approach for newcomers). I'm disappointed that Jeff has taken what is essentially an elitist and exclusionary view. Programming is not a zero sum game. Every new programmer isn't a threat to your livelihood and your existence…

I don't believe this post gets the real reason why Jeff said what he said. In my opinion, Jeff projected some of his issues with the current state of the software development profession (mainly the "hack fist, ask questions later" aproach). The idea that bothered him wasn't born from elitism, identity, or the fact that people were learning to code, but the idea that, to him, this makes this issue worse . It's true th…

I realize that you meant to say "hack first", but I think hack fist is pretty appropriate as well. Also, it would make a killer heavy metal band name.
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