Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Dada, an experimental new programming language

dada-lang.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 428 posts

Re: Dada, an experimental new programming language

#101

Post by argiopetech »

pas wrote: post #89
thesz wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> actually creating a working language is a big overhead Languages, with first class values, pattern matching, rich types, type inference and even fancy RTS, often can be embedded in Haskell. For one example, it is very much possible to embed into Haskell a Rust-like language, even with borrow checking (which is type-checking time environment handling, much like linear logic). See [1], [2] and [3]. [1] http://blog.si…

> instead of embedding Rust-DSL into Haskell, authors of Rust preferred to implement Rust in OCaml why? and how much does it matter, if the goal is to have a compiler/interpreter? (as I assume is the case with Dada, and was with Rust)

R&D. Bootstrapping.

Re: Dada, an experimental new programming language

#102

Post by jamsterion »

Dada looks "almost" great! I especially like that it targets wasm; I believe wasm is the future of frontend and also backend with wasi. However, I believe that being gradually typed is a mistake. Dart started being optionally typed and then they made it fully statically typed for very good reasons. I hope they learn from Dart's experience there.

Re: Dada, an experimental new programming language

#103

Post by sanderjd »

dartos wrote: post #32
happens wrote: post #25

It's weird, I want pretty much the exact opposite of this: a language with the expressive type system and syntax of rust, but with a garbage collector and a runtime at the cost performance. Basically go, but with rusts type system. I'm aware that there are a few languages that come close to this (crystal iirc), but in the end it's adoption and the ecosystem that keeps me from using them.

That sounds… bad? The whole point of rusts type system is to try to ensure safe memory usage. Opinions are opinions, but if I’m letting my runtime handle memory for me, I’d want a lighter weight, more expressive type system.

> The whole point of rusts type system is to try to ensure safe memory usage.

It isn't though. The whole trait system is unnecessary for this goal, yet it exists. ADTs are unnecessary to this goal, yet they exist. And many of us like those aspects of the type system even more than those that exist to ensure safe memory usage.

Re: Dada, an experimental new programming language

#104

Post by nu11ptr »

BoppreH wrote: post #72
bananapub wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

one of the other reasons global inference isn't used is because it causes weird spooky action at a distance - changing how something is used in one place will break other code.

I've heard that, but never seen an example*. If the type system complains of an issue in other code after a local change, doesn't that mean that the other code indeed needs updating (modulo false positives, which should be rarer with granular types). Or is this about libraries and API compatibility? * I have seen examples of spooky-action-at-a-distance where usage of a function changes its inferred type, but that goe…

Try writing a larger OCaml program and not using interface files. It definitely happens.

Re: Dada, an experimental new programming language

#106

Post by zozbot234 »

gary17the wrote: post #53
happens wrote: post #25

It's weird, I want pretty much the exact opposite of this: a language with the expressive type system and syntax of rust, but with a garbage collector and a runtime at the cost performance. Basically go, but with rusts type system. I'm aware that there are a few languages that come close to this (crystal iirc), but in the end it's adoption and the ecosystem that keeps me from using them.

If you do not want to mess with Rust borrow checker, you do not really need a garbage collector: you can rely on Rust reference counting. Use 1.) Rust reference-counted smart pointers[1] for shareable immutable references and 2.) Rust internal mutability[2] for non-shareable mutable references checked at runtime instead of compile time. Effectively, you will be writing kind of verbose Golang with Rust's expressivenes…

This is what Swift does, and it has even lower performance than tracing GC.

(To be clear, using RC for everything is fine for prototype-level or purely exploratory code, but if you care about performance you'll absolutely want to have good support for non-refcounted objects, as in Rust.)

Re: Dada, an experimental new programming language

#107

Post by sanderjd »

afavour wrote: post #55
dartos wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds… bad? The whole point of rusts type system is to try to ensure safe memory usage. Opinions are opinions, but if I’m letting my runtime handle memory for me, I’d want a lighter weight, more expressive type system.

I like Rust’s type system just fine but for me it’s types combined with language features like matching that draw me to Rust. When I was still learning I made an entire project using Arc with no lifetimes at all and it was actually a great experience, even if it’s not the textbook way to use Rust.

Honestly, I think syntax for Arc (and/or Rc or some generalization of the two) and more "cultural" support for writing in that style would have benefitted rust back when 1.0 was being finalized. But I think the cow is out of the barn now on what rust "is" and that it isn't this.

Re: Dada, an experimental new programming language

#108

Post by gary17the »

amw-zero wrote: post #73
gary17the wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you do not want to mess with Rust borrow checker, you do not really need a garbage collector: you can rely on Rust reference counting. Use 1.) Rust reference-counted smart pointers[1] for shareable immutable references and 2.) Rust internal mutability[2] for non-shareable mutable references checked at runtime instead of compile time. Effectively, you will be writing kind of verbose Golang with Rust's expressivenes…

A language has a paved road, and when you go off of that road you are key with extreme annoyance and friction every step of the way. You’re telling people to just ignore the paved road of Rust, which is bad advice.

No, not really. Firstly, there is no significant "friction" to using Rust smart pointers and internal mutability primitives, as those constructs have been added to Rust for a reason: to solve certain borrow checker edge cases (e.g., multiply interconnected data structures), so they are treated by the Rust ecosystem as first-class citizens. Secondly, those constructs make a pretty good educational tool. By the time people get to know Rust well enough to use those constructs, they will inevitably realize that mastering the Rust borrow checker is just one book chapter away to go through out of passion or boredom.

Re: Dada, an experimental new programming language

#109

Post by sanderjd »

quadrature wrote: post #30
happens wrote: post #25

It's weird, I want pretty much the exact opposite of this: a language with the expressive type system and syntax of rust, but with a garbage collector and a runtime at the cost performance. Basically go, but with rusts type system. I'm aware that there are a few languages that come close to this (crystal iirc), but in the end it's adoption and the ecosystem that keeps me from using them.

You’ve just described scala.

Ha, no. Scala does contain this language the parent described, but alongside the huge multitudes of other languages it also contains.

Re: Dada, an experimental new programming language

#110

Post by sanderjd »

actionfromafar wrote: post #52
iainmerrick wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TypeScript maybe?

If we are going that far, I suggest hopping off just one station earlier at Crystal-lang.

Yep, I think Crystal is the thing that is making a real go at essentially this suggestion. And I think it's a great language and hope it will grow.
Post reply on HN