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Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

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Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#101

Post by colechristensen »

al_borland wrote: post #6

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

Didn't Apple buy up a bunch of companies and patents that enabled their various touch control devices?

Here's one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks

I remember another one for the iPod interface but don't want to put that much research into it.

I think it comes down to patents and getting a bunch of small things just right... which you can do if you're Apple and you own the full stack, but is much more difficult supporting all the rest of random hardware.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#103

Post by yencabulator »

seszett wrote: post #20
al_borland wrote: post #6

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

I've been reading this kind of opinion for years, but I have always found the touchpad to be annoyingly slow under macOS. On the other hand, MacBooks are basically the only laptops with a large enough touchpad to be comfortable, I don't know if there's some other secret sauce Apple algorithm in the firmware that contributes to the experience, but to me the perfect combination is with a MacBook running Linux, which is…

> MacBooks are basically the only laptops with a large enough touchpad to be comfortable

This is surprisingly tough to google, but apparently at least some Apple laptop touchpads are 13cm wide, and my Framework 13" touchpad is 11.5x7.66cm (and making it any taller would increase the size of the whole chassis).

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#104

Post by jandrese »

iknowstuff wrote: post #76
asdff wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I believe that the 3D Touch tech that was once in the iPhone is the same tech that is in the track pad and the Apple Watch 3D touch was only in the iphones for a few years, it was too expensive so they cut it in favor of the haptic touch they have now. The macbook trackpad is nice but honestly I prefer the old 2012 one they had with the actual physical button you could tweak the pressure of with a screwdriver. It se…

I’m sorry what You can adjust the pressing force required in software, and the glass does in fact depress under your finger. It’s cushioned - that’s how they detect pressure.

You can also detect pressure by just measuring how much of your finger is touching the pad. A small spot means light pressure, a large spot where your skin is flatted out more against the glass is higher pressure. In practice these kinds of measurements are fairly tricky so they don't get used very much.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#105

Post by yencabulator »

samatman wrote: post #57
cycomanic wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also priorise input devices and because of that I would never get a laptop without a track point. Track pads (no matter which ones) are just such a poor choice of pointing device on a laptop, requiring one to essentially move the hand away from the keyboard. Unfortunately I'm pretty much locked into thinkpads now because all other track pointers are pretty crap. The again I can't really complain thinkpads are quite…

There's a categorical difference between preferring one sort of input over another, and there being only one acceptable implementation of that category. As you indicated, if the keyboard cough nub, let's call it a nub, is your mouse pusher of choice, you pretty much own a ThinkPad, because the other ones suck. If you like a trackpad, you have a Mac, for the same reason. I don't know if it's the hardware or the firmwa…

> If you like a trackpad, you have a Mac, for the same reason.

Weird fanboyism. I've migrated from nubs to touchpads because Lenovo ruined Thinkpads, and I'm perfectly fine without a Mac thankyouverymuch.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#106

Post by ManuelKiessling »

deeg wrote: post #8
jxdxbx wrote: post #4

Apple has been perfecting its trackpad software since 1994, and it’s been getting better ever since. By contrast Apple keyboards have gotten worse since 1995 when it discontinued the Apple Extended Keyboard II. We don’t talk about Apple’s mice.

It's not just the software. I have Ubuntu on a 2017 MBP and the touch pad experience is so much better than linux on anything else.

Well, that’s core Apple, isn’t it: „People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware“.

A handful of stupid mice and trashcan Macs don’t negate the fact that for a significant number of solutions, Apple nailed vertical integration of software and hardware, and the math plays out wonderfully in terms of User Experience; for these devices, 1 plus 1 equals 11.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#107

Post by yencabulator »

sandreas wrote: post #37
al_borland wrote: post #6

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

It isn't... You can see this in an open source JavaScript implementation of kinetic scrolling by Apple called PastryKit[3] using a magic number momentum * 0.9. The problem is, that on modern Linux environments, there is no clear responsibility for where scroll handling code belongs. Especially Kinetic / Inertial scrolling is handled way different than in macOS. There is libinput (for handling and redirecting input ev…

> There is the display server

> There is the compositor

> There is the window manager

What kind of Schrodinger Way11 world is that? X11 has display server and window manager (and window manager doesn't deal with mouse movement), and Wayland has a compositor.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#108

Post by johnwalkr »

iknowstuff wrote: post #76
asdff wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I believe that the 3D Touch tech that was once in the iPhone is the same tech that is in the track pad and the Apple Watch 3D touch was only in the iphones for a few years, it was too expensive so they cut it in favor of the haptic touch they have now. The macbook trackpad is nice but honestly I prefer the old 2012 one they had with the actual physical button you could tweak the pressure of with a screwdriver. It se…

I’m sorry what You can adjust the pressing force required in software, and the glass does in fact depress under your finger. It’s cushioned - that’s how they detect pressure.

They barely deflect, strain gauges measure the deflection and trigger the haptic part. When off, it does feel pretty solid. When on, the effect is very convincing, you would never know it's not a button without being told. I had a coworker once that was ready to open up his turned-off macbook because he had been near sand recently and was convinced sand must be trapped inside the trackpad because it "didn't depress".

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#109

Post by nerdjon »

TonyTrapp wrote: post #93
nerdjon wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an interesting thing to think about, I have friends that use Windows that are shocked that I willingly chose to get an external trackpad when I use my Mac as desktop. Even more interesting is when I see my partner try to do something on my Mac using a trackpad, he seems... apprehensive? Like he is so afraid of doing the wrong thing and for me this trackpad has never done something I didn't want it to do. Like w…

> Even more interesting is when I see my partner try to do something on my Mac using a trackpad, he seems... apprehensive? Like he is so afraid of doing the wrong thing and for me this trackpad has never done something I didn't want it to do. Like without even thinking about it while I was re-reading this comment, I had fingers just resting on my trackpad. I think I'll never "get" drag&drop on MacBook touchpads. Ever…

Since you mention the touchpad being too small, are you trying to drag and drop with one finger or multiple?

What I always just do is click with my thumb and move around with my other fingers. As long as my thumb stays down it stays selected. Then just a few quick swipes with my finger gets whatever it is I am selecting where I want to go.

Same works for windows and anything you click and drag. Admittedly there is a quirk here that I have noticed, if for some reason I click and try to drag with the same finger, I then can't switch to dragging around with a different finger.

But personally I treat my thumb just resting no the track pad as my click finger and move/gesture with my other fingers.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#110

Post by data-ottawa »

TonyTrapp wrote: post #93
nerdjon wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an interesting thing to think about, I have friends that use Windows that are shocked that I willingly chose to get an external trackpad when I use my Mac as desktop. Even more interesting is when I see my partner try to do something on my Mac using a trackpad, he seems... apprehensive? Like he is so afraid of doing the wrong thing and for me this trackpad has never done something I didn't want it to do. Like w…

> Even more interesting is when I see my partner try to do something on my Mac using a trackpad, he seems... apprehensive? Like he is so afraid of doing the wrong thing and for me this trackpad has never done something I didn't want it to do. Like without even thinking about it while I was re-reading this comment, I had fingers just resting on my trackpad. I think I'll never "get" drag&drop on MacBook touchpads. Ever…

I turn on the accessibility setting for drag lock as the first thing I do on any new macOS install, that helps a lot
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