Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Profitable Until Deemed Illegal

codinghorror.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 135 posts

Re: Profitable Until Deemed Illegal

#101

Post by mattmaroon »

patio11 wrote: post #93
mattmaroon wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Games of skill with monetary prizes are legal in all states. How you define a game of skill vs. a game of chance varies, but with no random element here, I doubt this would be considered gambling in any. There are 6 where they may run into some sweepstakes laws though, I'm not sure. There are states where it is actually illegal to have a contest that is free to enter but awards a prize.

>> Games of skill with monetary prizes are legal in all states >> That's just false. First law I checked (for my home state): "A person commits [the offense of] gambling when he : 1) Plays a game of chance or skill for money or other thing of value , unless excepted in subsection (b) of this Section"

Hmm, seems I was wrong, organized games of skill for money (i.e. chess tournaments) are legal only by permit in some states. Yet WorldWinner.com operates in some of those.

See, that's why you ask a lawyer. And not me.

Re: Profitable Until Deemed Illegal

#102

Post by gnaritas »

mynameishere wrote: post #70
gnaritas wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that what most businesses do?

An annoying attitude. I spend 2 dollars on a box of crackers. Here's the rough process: 1. Farmer takes out a loan at Wells Fargo. 2. Loan clears, Farmer buys seed, etc. 3. Farmer grows 2000 acres of wheat. 4. Summer passes, farmer harvests wheat, and it travels 1000 miles to be processed. 5. Nabisco (Altria) buys wheat for a pre-agreed price (determined months ago by the Chicago futures exchange--a bunch of speculat…

Where exactly did I say anything about evil? The goal of business is to fleece its customers of their money. Some do it in nicer ways than others but they all do it, poor money management skills on the customers part is always good for business. Our entire consumer economy is based on that fact; we spend all of our excess money rather than saving it like we should.

Re: Profitable Until Deemed Illegal

#103

Post by rw »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #84
run4yourlives wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So does the government and many charities, the entire city of Las Vegas and churches on Saturday nights across the country, every major sports league (not often directly), etc etc etc. Pretty much every business takes advantage of the fact that the consumer is lacking something, whether that's knowledge, time, money or material. It's the way capitalism works.

No. Capitalism is a system of decentralised decision making on resource allocation, ultimately leading to increased productivity and innovation. I have no idea how a ponzi scheme that makes "simple" people overpay fits this description as it leads to incredibly bad resource allocation. You could argue that such failures are part of capitalism and I would agree. But they are still failures. Capitalism depends on such…

You said: Capitalism is a system of decentralised decision making on resource allocation, ultimately leading to increased productivity and innovation.

You cannot insert a result into a definition. P may or may not imply Q.

Re: Profitable Until Deemed Illegal

#104

Post by asdflkj »

mattmaroon wrote: post #100
asdflkj wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone who can see the slot machine's internals and understands how it works will be able to predict the outcome, so in that sense it's not "truly" random. The reason it's still legally random is that it's as good as random from the point of view of the player. Same applies here. No?

No. This auction system is no more random than chess. In chess, your opponent can just blunder and give you a win. Bobby Fisher once lost to a newspaper reporter. But just as in chess, this auction system determines a result based solely on the actions of the participant. There is no roll of a die, turn of a card, or reading of a number from an RNG. Legally you need something like that to be considered gambling. You'…

So if the outcome of the slot machine is determined by the outcomes of other slot machines in the casino, then the slot machine ceases to be a game of chance?

It seems to me that if you define randomness in any way besides "involves no skill, or almost no skill", but instead by explicitly describing the mechanism of "randomness", then all sorts of loopholes open up.

In any case, big kudos to these guys for coming up with it. My day was completely ruined by envy.

Re: Profitable Until Deemed Illegal

#105

Post by mattmaroon »

asdflkj wrote: post #104
mattmaroon wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. This auction system is no more random than chess. In chess, your opponent can just blunder and give you a win. Bobby Fisher once lost to a newspaper reporter. But just as in chess, this auction system determines a result based solely on the actions of the participant. There is no roll of a die, turn of a card, or reading of a number from an RNG. Legally you need something like that to be considered gambling. You'…

So if the outcome of the slot machine is determined by the outcomes of other slot machines in the casino, then the slot machine ceases to be a game of chance? It seems to me that if you define randomness in any way besides "involves no skill, or almost no skill", but instead by explicitly describing the mechanism of "randomness", then all sorts of loopholes open up. In any case, big kudos to these guys for coming up…

Each slot machine has its own independent RNG. Even if they shared one, it's still an RNG. Many forms of gambling involve skill. For instance, I can achieve a higher return (though still negative) at a craps table than your average Vegas gambler because I know which bets pay the best odds. That doesn't make them any less gambling.

How much skill vs. chance constitutes gambling varies from state to state. But no state would define a system in which there is no random element as gambling. If the outcome is 100% the result of the actions of the "betters" it's clearly a game of skill. (If it's based on the actions of third party humans and contests, it's usually illegal, such as betting on sports or elections).

Interestingly, in many states instant bingo machines are legal games of skill due to that very reason. They look and feel just like a slot machine, but the payouts are predetermined, just like a box of instant bingo cards, so there's no element of chance, even though the person playing them has no idea what the next payout will be. States have been/are closing that loophole fast.

Re: Profitable Until Deemed Illegal

#106

Post by sachinag »

mattmaroon wrote: post #83

It's actually humorous to me how many people here are expressing firm opinions about whether or not this is legal despite the fact that they clearly have no understanding of the complexities of gaming law in the United States. This is why I always tell people "ask a lawyer". Non-lawyers think they know far more than they really do. As someone whose startup has spent huge amounts of time and money on online gaming leg…

Yeah, it's been a while since I've boned up on my online gaming/online poker stuff, but I would consider myself an expert on marketplace dynamics and structures (as we invented our own structure for Dawdle.com). This meets all the requirements of an auction site, and by a country mile.

Re: Profitable Until Deemed Illegal

#107

Post by fauigerzigerk »

mattmaroon wrote: post #99
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it's despicable, but the difference to gambling is that gambling is sold as purely entertainment. The fun _is_ the product. Swoopo mentions entertainment as well, but they also make people believe that they are buying a product for a good price, which is clearly not the case. So as a (potential) customer I'm taking note that this company is using deceptive tactics, claiming one thing and structuring thei…

Some people are buying the product at a good price though.

Yes, but if you try to buy several products in this way you're not always winning, so the average price each individual pays per successfully purchased product will be awful, or the business model wouldn't work.

Re: Profitable Until Deemed Illegal

#108

Post by mattmaroon »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #107
mattmaroon wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are buying the product at a good price though.

Yes, but if you try to buy several products in this way you're not always winning, so the average price each individual pays per successfully purchased product will be awful, or the business model wouldn't work.

Right. Which is fine because that's the entertainment aspect of it. You're playing a game where the goal is to get a product for the best price, and you know it. And if you don't succeed, you lose some money, and you know that too.

Seems like a fun game to me, I'm already thinking about how I might be able to take advantage of it.

Re: Profitable Until Deemed Illegal

#109

Post by mattmaroon »

mattmaroon wrote: post #105
asdflkj wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if the outcome of the slot machine is determined by the outcomes of other slot machines in the casino, then the slot machine ceases to be a game of chance? It seems to me that if you define randomness in any way besides "involves no skill, or almost no skill", but instead by explicitly describing the mechanism of "randomness", then all sorts of loopholes open up. In any case, big kudos to these guys for coming up…

Each slot machine has its own independent RNG. Even if they shared one, it's still an RNG. Many forms of gambling involve skill. For instance, I can achieve a higher return (though still negative) at a craps table than your average Vegas gambler because I know which bets pay the best odds. That doesn't make them any less gambling. How much skill vs. chance constitutes gambling varies from state to state. But no state…

On a related note, I've been interviewed a number of times about poker and am always asked whether it's a game of chance or skill. I always tell them both, which people just don't want to accept as an answer. I don't know why people think all games are one or the other.

Sure, some games you can be +EV, some you can't without cheating, but that doesn't mean it's binary.

Re: Profitable Until Deemed Illegal

#110

Post by Dilpil »

run4yourlives wrote: post #48
Dilpil wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except you CANT guarantee yourself a win, and you certainly can't guarantee yourself a win at any price. It IS essentially random what the bidders competing with you do in response to your "last" bid.

>Except you CANT guarantee yourself a win, and you certainly can't guarantee yourself a win at any price. Of course you can. Every time you bid you extend the auction, therefore if you're willing to pay the most you will win. (Now, that amount may be worth more than buying the item in a store somewhere, but that's beside the point really)

Suppose both sides 'decide to win'. Now it is a game of chance based on who happens to have the highest bankroll is it not?
Post reply on HN