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The case against caffeine

zantafakari.substack.com

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Re: The case against caffeine

#101

Post by embwbam »

crazygringo wrote: post #75
richrichie wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is customary for me to enjoy an espresso (occasionally two) with a bar of dark chocolate after dinner. I sleep well not much later. 100s of thousands, if not millions, do this as a matter of culture.

But have you ever tried stopping caffeine and then comparing your sleep? What if you think you sleep well now, but it turns out you can sleep so much better? I'm not saying you will (I'm neither pro- nor anti-caffeine). But I am saying that unless you've tried it, you have no way of knowing. And I know lots of people who have improved their sleep in various ways, who thought they were sleeping normally/fine, and then…

People process caffeine super differently. I’m pretty sure caffeine makes me crash 4-6h later which is great for falling asleep

Re: The case against caffeine

#102

Post by bryanlarsen »

city41 wrote: post #82
bryanlarsen wrote: post #71

Another reason to not regularly use caffeine is that it can be an effective medication, especially in combination with other medications. Caffeine increases blood flow in the brain, so it can be effective for headaches, and it increases the absorption of other drugs like ibuprofen and acetaminophen. If caffeinated is your normal state, then it becomes much less effective at treating migraines, hangovers and other hea…

This site says just the opposite > Caffeine narrows the blood vessels in your brain. Without it, your blood vessels widen. https://www.healthline.com/health/headache/caffeine-withdraw...

Okay, I may have the mechanism wrong, but you've confirmed that it's active in brain blood flow. It's definitely an effective medicine and complement, at least for me. It's included in many OTC cold & headache mixes for a reason.

Re: The case against caffeine

#103

Post by simonsarris »

To add another anecdote: I drink minimum one small pot of coffee a day (a pour-over I make with my wife, 30g/450g beans/water), plus a moka pot or two in the afternoon, or a 15g pour-over. And 1-3 espresso shots if I go into the office. I consider the coffee experience positively euphoric. Almost spiritual. Certainly ritual. I would never give up the time of sitting with my wife for half an hour to an hour each morning (especially in this season by the fire).

I have never had anything like anxiety, before nor after coffee. I suspect that for many people's cases with such things, other dietary changes (including unnoticed enormous amounts of sugar with the coffee) may be the real culprit. But it's so hard to say with individuals.

Re: The case against caffeine

#104

Post by licebmi__at__ »

I don’t drink coffee as it doesn’t sit well in my stomach, but the thing is, I’ve never felt like coffee does anything for me. I can drink a cup of really caffeinated coffee and drink without any issue and even sometimes the warm beverage actually helps me fall sleep.

But you know what triggers tachycardia and rushing feeling? Corn based food like tortilla, which is really ironic as I’m mexican.

Re: The case against caffeine

#105

Post by city41 »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #102
city41 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This site says just the opposite > Caffeine narrows the blood vessels in your brain. Without it, your blood vessels widen. https://www.healthline.com/health/headache/caffeine-withdraw...

Okay, I may have the mechanism wrong, but you've confirmed that it's active in brain blood flow. It's definitely an effective medicine and complement, at least for me. It's included in many OTC cold & headache mixes for a reason.

Yeah, for sure. This post and these comments just made me google caffeine for a bit.

If I don't get my morning cup I almost always get quite the headache, so I'm not surprised.

Re: The case against caffeine

#106

Post by tlb »

raccoonDivider wrote: post #67

The graph titled "Caffeine Accumulation With Long Half Life" is weird. Isn't that not how half-life works? A higher blood level should mean faster elimination, but here it acts like the baseline changes each day. No matter how slow the user's clearance is, the ratio should always take the same time to get halved. Edit: actually this graph implies that people like the author would end up poisoned by a lethal dose of c…

Caffeine elimination, like all metabolic processes, isn't quite linear. At low levels the elimination rate is proportional to the caffeine concentration, so you get the "half life" exponential decay curve. But at high levels, elimination is limited by liver enzymes and decay is approximately linear.

So yes, there is some level of caffeine intake that exceeds the max rate the liver can remove it and concentration would increase indefinitely.

Re: The case against caffeine

#107

Post by karaterobot »

> I'm not writing a philosophical treatise here. I'm not writing a lawsuit to take all coffee lovers to court. And I'm definitely not writing a scientific review... What I'm sharing is the minority perspective.

If you're not mounting an honest case against caffeine, don't call your article The Case Against Caffeine. If your evidence is cherry-picked, as you admit it is, it's disingenuous to have a section called The Science Of Caffeine-Induced Anxiety.

Re: The case against caffeine

#108

Post by tayo42 »

_ink_ wrote: post #92
zeta0134 wrote: post #66

I tried this! I went completely caffeine free for over a year and was... fine? But way more tired all the time, and generally having trouble focusing on tasks. In my particular case, I suspect caffeine is a self administered coping mechanism for mild ADHD tendencies, and without that I became much more sensitive to the food I was eating and my changing energy levels throughout the day. Eventually I realized I had sto…

Yeah, I have the same feeling about ADHD. I would like to go decaf, I really do. Like higher blood pressure is already enough reason for me for quitting it. But when I don't drink caffeine, I cannot focus on anything anymore. Now I haven't been tested for ADHD so I don't have access to real ADHD meds. But those come with side effects as well, so I might just stay with caffeine.

Did you quit long enough that you got through the withdrawal?

Caffeine withdrawal is pretty bad, and you'll probably have trouble thinking. The first time I quit cold turkey, I felt dumb. Couldn't think clearly or focus until I got past it.

Re: The case against caffeine

#109

Post by mateo1 »

harimau777 wrote: post #7

At least personally, I've found that starting to drink coffee has had a pretty dramatic positive impact on my depression. I wonder if the difference in experience could come down to the specific circumstances and nature of the issues that someone faces?

If it helps you it's great. I was drinking tons of coffee daily from my teenage years to my mid-20s. I didn't feel any ill effects from it. Now in my early 30s, it causes anxiety. I don't know how or why, but it's scary how caffeine and a little bit of tiredness turns me into a shell of a man these days. Having a safe stimulant to kick you out of inactivity is a great help so I'd say take advantage of it.

Re: The case against caffeine

#110

Post by mindslight »

I had a hard time reading this article as the author kept coming back to all these "day 1" anecdotes. Quitting caffeine cold turkey, I go through about 2-3 weeks of withdrawal. The first few days really aren't bad, just a bit groggy and my executive function is a lot less imperative. It's after that the real symptoms set in - extreme lethargy, nausea, and suicidal thoughts (things like "I could avoid having to get up off the couch if I were dead". Otherwise completely out of character for me, so it's very clearly the withdrawal speaking).

I think the second week is generally the worst, but I always forget until I'm there. After I'm through the withdrawal I do feel that I'm better balanced. Of course then eventually there's something in my life I just need to push through, so I start down the path of doing a little caffeine, then a little more the next day to make up for that, etc. I liken it to a high interest loan, and the only way I've found to pay off being the aforementioned cold turkey.

What really weirds me out is people who talk as if caffeine is not a psychoactive drug. You mention to a doctor that you're currently on 300mg/day of caffeine and they look at you like you have three heads for bringing this up. I don't know if it's people's own cognitive dissonance from enjoying "coffee" but programmed with "drugs are bad", or if caffeine really just affects me more than the average person, or what.

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