EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#101

Post by PaywallBuster » Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 9:16 AM UTC

logifail wrote: post #51

jacquesm wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make the joke less dumb.

It's not my joke. Perhaps the joke makes some people feel uncomfortable. Jokes can be like that. If a NATO member had only 4 (four!) fighter jets ready for use out of a fleet of 128 (one hundred and twenty eight!)[0] we should also feel uncomfortable. That's not something to joke about. [0] https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/bundeswehr-luftwa...

And one of the biggest

We gonna find ourselves looking very much like Russias army

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#102

Post by mattclarkdotnet » Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 9:17 AM UTC

apexalpha wrote: post #90

The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down. If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU. But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting bannin…

I’m all for a sound industrial policy, but comparing market cap to GDP isn’t helpful. Better to compare corporate revenue which is typically 5% or less of market cap for FAANG.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#103

Post by hardware2win » Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 9:17 AM UTC

unnouinceput wrote: post #10

This can become very realistic by 2025 even. Just poach the brains at ASML, shower them with money (you know those fucking 50 millions bonuses that shitty CEO's enjoy nowadays), give them free hand for all decisions (both tech creativity and management) and voila! - goal achieved. Doubt will happen since this "goal" smells more like another "it's electoral year, let's make some noise in the press" rather than an actu…

This isnt some 50ppl startup

There are long ass supply chains

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#104

Post by em500 » Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 9:19 AM UTC

georgeecollins wrote: post #88

DropPanda wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a Scandinavian country. Our welfare system is structured such that people are expected to withdraw from the tax pool during the beginning and end of life, and contribute to the pool in between. Adult immigrants will benefit less from the system than locals over their lifetime, but may end up contributing as much. Adult immigrants with advanced degrees who come to work here for a few years and then move out…

>> locally quite high $80k annual income (STEM PhD, 40yo) I love Europe, both for the lifestyle and the safety net. But the salaries are kind of shocking for an American.

A lot of things that (especially progressive) Americans love about Europe are at least in part financed by those lower salaries.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#105

Post by jimnotgym » Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 9:19 AM UTC

sunshine-o wrote: post #84

jimnotgym wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit of a weirdly worded article. I think what actually happened was the German government funded it. The EU approved of them doing it, which had to be checked under the EU state aid rules. This is very different to what you stated. https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/28084-eu-clears-state-ai...

At the end it is always the same type of scheme. The search engine story made the news because it sounded so ridiculous. The EU (and its members) does that for every key technology. For cloud they did it at least 2 or 3 times. I vaguely remember a bunch of alternative "clouds" were created so they have a sovereign cloud, and then bought back by a big telco linked to the state. Then the big telco have it managed by Hu…

Of course they did, when the aeroplane was invented lots of countries made their own aeroplanes. They still buy them from Boeing, but they could make their own if they had to.

This is how governments protect their countries, they have a back up plan. If access to MS Office, Oracle, AWS etc was restricted by the US government, or began to be priced unreasonably high, effective replacements are ready to go live. Until then it makes sense to stick with the ones everyone else is using

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#106

Post by chottocharaii » Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 9:19 AM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #83

IshKebab wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I've worked in a couple of startups in the UK now that I was surprised to discover got most of their funding from the EU. E.g. Ultrahaptics (which was an obviously flawed idea) got most money from Horizon 2020, not customers. Kind of weird that these wastes of money are never in the news, not even during Brexit.

Want to bet you've never heard of most of the companies that benefited from vast amounts of US government research grants that helped lay the foundations for much of the US tech industry? Most people won't have heard about most the successful companies that resulted from the combination of military spending and research grants, much less the many failures on the way. If we knew how to pick the successes ahead of time…

Well said !!

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#107

Post by ben_w » Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 9:20 AM UTC

apexalpha wrote: post #90

The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down. If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU. But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting bannin…

> In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries.

Those GDPs varies from about €18 billion (Malta) to about €4 trillion (Germany).

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#108

Post by baybal2 » Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 9:23 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #89

onion2k wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously they cannot all be right. As a percentage of the market, that's true, but if the subsidies grow the whole market then every block's dollar value of market share can all go up. Every startup learns this lesson quite early on. It's a heck of a lot easier to grow a market by 5% than it is to take 5% of the market from a competitor, mostly because competitors do things to try to stop you.

Sure, but the semiconductor market is mature bordering on stagnant. There's a high-risk/high-reward competition for the leading edge that is currently dominated by TSMC, but there's just not much money to be made from the older nodes that the automotive, aviation and military segments care about. Building out capacity to secure your supply chains is potentially a very sensible strategic decision, but I'll eat my hat…

[dead]

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#109

Post by dijit » Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 9:26 AM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #107

apexalpha wrote: post #90

The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down. If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU. But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting bannin…

> In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Those GDPs varies from about €18 billion (Malta) to about €4 trillion (Germany).

Yes, but we typically think of the EU as advanced economies, and the notion of a company having a market cap larger than some advanced economies definitely hurts when subsidies from that bloc are increasing profits.

Which is what the parent is directly addressing.

anyway: GDP is more closely related to revenue than it is market cap.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#110

Post by tikkabhuna » Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 9:27 AM UTC

DropPanda wrote: post #55

logifail wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't punish individuals and companies trying to get work done and benefit your economy Getting work done is one thing, why should locals support tax breaks for expats? "Technology companies including ASML Holding NV and Adyen NV called on the Dutch government to maintain a tax break that seeks to attract expatriates to the Netherlands. Ingrid Thijssen, head of the Confederation of Netherlands Industry and Employer…

I live in a Scandinavian country. Our welfare system is structured such that people are expected to withdraw from the tax pool during the beginning and end of life, and contribute to the pool in between. Adult immigrants will benefit less from the system than locals over their lifetime, but may end up contributing as much. Adult immigrants with advanced degrees who come to work here for a few years and then move out…

This may be out of date now, but friends in Singapore told me about their system and it sounded like a good idea.

They have a low base tax rate but permanent residents and citizens have to pay ~20% into a fund. They could withdraw from it to buy housing or for a pension. It could also be withdrawn if you leave Singapore.

It feels like that’s what we need in Europe.