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U.S. army drops requirement for high school diploma (2022)

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Re: U.S. army drops requirement for high school diploma (2022)

#101

Post by freedomben »

klipklop wrote: post #45
Waterluvian wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing it means is that they’re administering the test, not a school board. That may be relevant or ripe for abuse.

It would seem to be in their self interest to not skew the test results. The military has done a lot of research on their testing. A soldier that is too incompetent is a danger to his/her comrades. Previous attempts to recruit soldiers with too low of an IQ was a disaster. More danger than help. I don’t really see how they would he less trustworthy than a school board. Especially considering the stakes.

Agreed. The military is incredibly scientific about their approach to testing. No test is perfect of course, but they have high levels of funding for full-time professionals to do nothing but study this in a rigorous academic way. Also worth remembering is that the military academies are ivy league, so not exactly low value institutions.

Where there is a need for personnel, there is some incentive to accept people who might not be ideal, but they are going to approach that in the most sane way possible.

Re: U.S. army drops requirement for high school diploma (2022)

#102

Post by johnnyanmac »

thret wrote: post #29
hipadev23 wrote: post #10

If you want more recruits, you simply need to pay more.

US military are notoriously underpaid. Increase the base pay, increase the long-term incentives. They're not working for tips.

The idea of military was that you have below average pay but insane benefits (and depending on the time, cultural respect), both directly and indirectly (There are/were so many places that give a military discount). The latter is falling off as of late (both directly and indirectly, again), so what's the point if you're not conscripted?

Re: U.S. army drops requirement for high school diploma (2022)

#103

Post by AlchemistCamp »

halJordan wrote: post #52
klipklop wrote: post #24

A bit of sensationalism going on. They still have to pass a standardize test that mostly proves they have an IQ suitable for military service. There are people that could be a great soldier/servicemember that didn’t make it through high school. Some will flourish under a military environment that failed out of high school. I don’t really like people assuming somebody that didn’t graduate high school are somehow infer…

The problem is that a high school education represents literally years of knowledge a person has accumulated. People not having that knowledge means they will not be able to participate. It's not about whether they will be smart enough to learn; it's about the fact that they will have to be taught. There's no foundation to build on, there's no axiomatic knowledge we can rely on. People who haven't graduated high scho…

> “People who haven't graduated high school are inferior. They're not less human, but they are incontrovertibly less able.”

I didn’t graduate from high school, and I completely disagree with you.

I learned more math as a teenager than most people ever do, learned two languages to fluency in my 20s, both in very different language families from my native one, and got into a nice software career in my 30s, first in Beijing and then in SF.

Why exactly am I “inferior”? Just because I didn’t choose to pursue the piece of paper that your world view dictates?

Re: U.S. army drops requirement for high school diploma (2022)

#104

Post by jandrewrogers »

halJordan wrote: post #52
klipklop wrote: post #24

A bit of sensationalism going on. They still have to pass a standardize test that mostly proves they have an IQ suitable for military service. There are people that could be a great soldier/servicemember that didn’t make it through high school. Some will flourish under a military environment that failed out of high school. I don’t really like people assuming somebody that didn’t graduate high school are somehow infer…

The problem is that a high school education represents literally years of knowledge a person has accumulated. People not having that knowledge means they will not be able to participate. It's not about whether they will be smart enough to learn; it's about the fact that they will have to be taught. There's no foundation to build on, there's no axiomatic knowledge we can rely on. People who haven't graduated high scho…

I think you may be overestimating the amount of education many high school graduates have as a practical matter. Similarly, I know people that never finished high school that achieved more in computer science disciplines than most people that post here ever will. Most things of value you have to teach yourself, no matter how much schooling you have, and that has far more bearing on outcomes than people like to acknowledge.

For people that didn’t graduate high school, being a moron typically was not a causal factor. Knowing how to write and do basic algebra is sufficient to bootstrap yourself to anywhere you want to go, and many people get an adequate foundation in that before they ever get to high school, never mind graduate.

Re: U.S. army drops requirement for high school diploma (2022)

#105

Post by rahimnathwani »

I'm not sure what a high school diploma proves.

In my local school district, of students that enter high school:

- by 11th grade, ~50% meet state standards 11th grade standards for math

- by 11th grade, ~50% meet state standards 11th grade standards for English

- by 12th grade ~90% graduate

Re: U.S. army drops requirement for high school diploma (2022)

#106

Post by mlyle »

halJordan wrote: post #52
klipklop wrote: post #24

A bit of sensationalism going on. They still have to pass a standardize test that mostly proves they have an IQ suitable for military service. There are people that could be a great soldier/servicemember that didn’t make it through high school. Some will flourish under a military environment that failed out of high school. I don’t really like people assuming somebody that didn’t graduate high school are somehow infer…

The problem is that a high school education represents literally years of knowledge a person has accumulated. People not having that knowledge means they will not be able to participate. It's not about whether they will be smart enough to learn; it's about the fact that they will have to be taught. There's no foundation to build on, there's no axiomatic knowledge we can rely on. People who haven't graduated high scho…

> People who haven't graduated high school are inferior. They're not less human, but they are incontrovertibly less able.

I didn't graduate from high school. I ran business groups, founded startups, exited, accumulated patents, and am usually considered articulate and capable.

Yes, the distribution of people who didn't graduate from high school are different from those who did. But you can measure the things you actually care about. High school education (or other educational attainment) is just one signal of a person's capability.

Re: U.S. army drops requirement for high school diploma (2022)

#107

Post by emayljames »

klipklop wrote: post #24

A bit of sensationalism going on. They still have to pass a standardize test that mostly proves they have an IQ suitable for military service. There are people that could be a great soldier/servicemember that didn’t make it through high school. Some will flourish under a military environment that failed out of high school. I don’t really like people assuming somebody that didn’t graduate high school are somehow infer…

Yes exactly. For all the flaws and bad practices of the military and its recruitment, hitting down on people with bad circumstances is not flexing on those flaws and bad practices of the military. People's worth shouldn't depend on a high school diploma.

Re: U.S. army drops requirement for high school diploma (2022)

#108

Post by ransom1538 »

atmavatar wrote: post #55
b4ke wrote: post #53

They should institute a voluntary conscripted amnesty/asylum for those who entered into the country and are on immigration parole. This program could allow for retroactive application to spouses/children (no extended family transferability until completion of service contract). There would be no need for sign-on bonus, you could add additional qualifications for g.i. benefits in the form of naturalization. It would r…

I'm a little worried that if we implement the "service guarantees citizenship" scheme you allude to, we'll be forced to fight a war against an interstellar insect race soon after.

I feel like "service guarantees citizenship" was debated in 50BC in Ancient Rome. "In this framework, the blood and toil of immigrants won't just contribute to our nation's fabric, but will be the very bedrock of its defense."

We are going dark here.

Re: U.S. army drops requirement for high school diploma (2022)

#109

Post by dmoy »

halJordan wrote: post #48
jhelphenstine wrote: post #16

Missing in discussions about the US military recruiting problem is a discussion of the shift away from 20 year defined benefit pensions to the “Blended Retirement System.” When such a terrific deal slides off the table, economic incentives shift accordingly.

I disagree, the high 3 wasnt a good system. The difference between 2.0 and 2.5 % is minimal when you can completely lose the whole shebang at anytime for reasons that have nothing to do with your competence at any time between day 1 all the way through day 7304.

Also the vast majority don't get their 20. It's like >80% leaving before 20 yrs.

The bigger contributing factors to declining enlistment are: general lack of support for the military among younger people (the latest round of forever wars didn't exactly help), better options in the civilian world (especially increasing benefits on student loan suppprt), and decreasing physical fitness (the increase in obesity rates directly lowers the available recruitment population).

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