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HPV vaccine study finds zero cases of cervical cancer among women vaccinated <14

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Re: HPV vaccine study finds zero cases of cervical cancer among women vaccinated <14

#101
post #70

I recently heard a doctor mention that cervical cancer typically crops up around age 40. As a result, a study like this is a bit premature. It's not bad news, of course, but it's also not exactly good news.

Study like this are very good to push government to pay vaccination to all kids as early as possible. In Québec they did the vaccination to all the kids at 12yo, boys and girls.

$300 per dose * 100,000:1, so about $30 million per cancer cure that has a 70% survival rate.

Up to the voters I guess.

Re: HPV vaccine study finds zero cases of cervical cancer among women vaccinated <14

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right not to die of disease (were it to exist) would be a statutory right and not a fundamental one. I'd rather discuss fundamental rights which are a very different thing than the shopping list that is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. But I'll go one step further. Children have no fundamental right to even seek a vaccine independent of their mother and father. If they did, the tanks would be rolling in…

> I'd rather discuss fundamental rights... You're in luck, then; SCOTUS has deemed even compulsory vaccination to pass muster here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts We've got plenty of precedent that parents can't always opt out of life-saving care for their children, too. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/cancer/connecticut-teen-curab... > Children have no fundamental right to even seek a vaccine…

Compulsory vaccination statutes don't imply anything about whether a toddler has the fundamental inherent right to wander the neighborhood looking for immunizing material. I don't know why you brought it up.

Vaccines are not life-saving care by any definition. Not least of all because it does not cure or treat disease. I believe it's even illegal for a doctor to tell a patient otherwise. So this, too, is irrelevant.

>Are the children of Lancaster County pushing to be vaccinated and being denied by their parents?

Presumably they're pushing to do a whole lot of things. Not least of all staying up past bedtime.

Re: HPV vaccine study finds zero cases of cervical cancer among women vaccinated <14

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why they recommend against it. I guess the monetary costs don't outweigh the benefits, but that's only if you care more about saving money than potentially preventing cancer. It's not like the vaccine going to hurt you. But the HPV vaccine is not particularly cheap, so it sounds like the insurance companies have lobbied against it or something. In my opinion men should also be vaccinated for it sin…

Since nearly everyone is infected with HPV, if you've had sex with a few people you're almost certainly already infected and therefore the vaccine will be of no benefit. I guess if you were 50 and still a virgin, and planning to change that, it might be worth it.

> Since nearly everyone is infected with HPV

Not quite, though the messaging on this is muddy. The CDC simultaneously says:

> HPV is so common that nearly all sexually active men and women get the virus at some point in their lives. [1]

and

> During 2013–2014, any genital HPV prevalence among adults aged 18–59, was 42.5% in the total population, 45.2% among men and 39.9% among women; high-risk genital HPV prevalence was 22.7% in the total population, 25.1% among men and 20.4% among women. [2]

1: https://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/stats.htm

2: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db280.htm

Re: HPV vaccine study finds zero cases of cervical cancer among women vaccinated <14

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd rather discuss fundamental rights... You're in luck, then; SCOTUS has deemed even compulsory vaccination to pass muster here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts We've got plenty of precedent that parents can't always opt out of life-saving care for their children, too. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/cancer/connecticut-teen-curab... > Children have no fundamental right to even seek a vaccine…

Compulsory vaccination statutes don't imply anything about whether a toddler has the fundamental inherent right to wander the neighborhood looking for immunizing material. I don't know why you brought it up. Vaccines are not life-saving care by any definition. Not least of all because it does not cure or treat disease. I believe it's even illegal for a doctor to tell a patient otherwise. So this, too, is irrelevant.…

> Compulsory vaccination statutes don't imply anything about whether a toddler has the fundamental inherent right...

They do demonstrate a pretty clear scenario where some rights is trumped by other things. We are discussing a potential such scenario; parents' rights versus a child's opting to get a vaccine that's most effective if administered as a minor.

> Vaccines are not life-saving care by any definition. Not least of all because it does not cure or treat disease.

Sure they can. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_vaccines

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabies_vaccine is a good example of a vaccine frequently administered while infected to treat a disease.

Even without those, "not getting cancer" seems pretty clearly life-saving at a population level.

> Presumably they're pushing to do a whole lot of things. Not least of all staying up past bedtime.

A dodge. To be clear: if an Amish child wanted to get vaccinated, and their parents forbade it, I'd want our legal system to side with the child.

Re: HPV vaccine study finds zero cases of cervical cancer among women vaccinated <14

#105

It seems a little strange to me that the people interviewed in this article find this is so remarkable. Only 40,000 people belonged to the group that got the vaccine before 14. If the incidence rate were the same as for the unvaccinated (8.4 per 100k) you would have expected roughly 4 in the group to have gotten cancer. If the incidence rate were the same as for those vaccinated after 14 (3.2 per 100k), you would hav…

I believe that's "8.4 per 100k PER YEAR".

The paper uses the term "person-year". So, the intersection of both.

Re: HPV vaccine study finds zero cases of cervical cancer among women vaccinated <14

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since nearly everyone is infected with HPV, if you've had sex with a few people you're almost certainly already infected and therefore the vaccine will be of no benefit. I guess if you were 50 and still a virgin, and planning to change that, it might be worth it.

> Since nearly everyone is infected with HPV Not quite, though the messaging on this is muddy. The CDC simultaneously says: > HPV is so common that nearly all sexually active men and women get the virus at some point in their lives. [1] and > During 2013–2014, any genital HPV prevalence among adults aged 18–59, was 42.5% in the total population, 45.2% among men and 39.9% among women; high-risk genital HPV prevalence…

[deleted]

Re: HPV vaccine study finds zero cases of cervical cancer among women vaccinated <14

#107

Does it make sense to get a vaccine for older ppl, like 30y, does this still apply for men?

Yes absolutely. Even if you have already been exposed, the vaccine has been shown to prevent manifestations and/or recurrence of HPV-induced pathologies. It's not necessarily in standard of care, but the literature is pretty overwhelming here.

Re: HPV vaccine study finds zero cases of cervical cancer among women vaccinated <14

#108

It seems a little strange to me that the people interviewed in this article find this is so remarkable. Only 40,000 people belonged to the group that got the vaccine before 14. If the incidence rate were the same as for the unvaccinated (8.4 per 100k) you would have expected roughly 4 in the group to have gotten cancer. If the incidence rate were the same as for those vaccinated after 14 (3.2 per 100k), you would hav…

> Maybe I'm missing something here? Statistical literacy is difficult to develop, statistical intuition even moreso, even among well-intentioned and very intelligent people.

As demonstrated by the original comment we're all replying to (see the other replies).

Re: HPV vaccine study finds zero cases of cervical cancer among women vaccinated <14

#109
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Study like this are very good to push government to pay vaccination to all kids as early as possible. In Québec they did the vaccination to all the kids at 12yo, boys and girls.

$300 per dose * 100,000:1, so about $30 million per cancer cure that has a 70% survival rate. Up to the voters I guess.

The lifetime risk of ever getting cervical cancer is about 1%. So, $30,000 per prevention if you just count the girls, or $60k if you vaccinate the boys as well.

Re: HPV vaccine study finds zero cases of cervical cancer among women vaccinated <14

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compulsory vaccination statutes don't imply anything about whether a toddler has the fundamental inherent right to wander the neighborhood looking for immunizing material. I don't know why you brought it up. Vaccines are not life-saving care by any definition. Not least of all because it does not cure or treat disease. I believe it's even illegal for a doctor to tell a patient otherwise. So this, too, is irrelevant.…

> Compulsory vaccination statutes don't imply anything about whether a toddler has the fundamental inherent right... They do demonstrate a pretty clear scenario where some rights is trumped by other things. We are discussing a potential such scenario; parents' rights versus a child's opting to get a vaccine that's most effective if administered as a minor. > Vaccines are not life-saving care by any definition. Not le…

The comment which started this was implying that parental rights (in scare quotes) fell to the rights of children. All of your arguments focus on community rights and democratic power overcoming parental rights, something which is beside the point. If it requires democratic power and doesn't apply universally (spatially and temporally), even within that particular jurisdiction, it can hardly be said to be merely the recognition of a child's fundamental right. And the article you linked says that the Connecticut Supreme Court ruled that "[a] 17-year-old Connecticut girl with a highly curable cancer is not mentally competent to make her own medical decisions" (emphasis mine).

Also, your arguments about landmark cases in which state power overcame parental rights in rare situations would tend to demolish the idea that parental rights are some fringe legal and philosophical movement cooked up by anti-vaxxers, which is the implication which began this thread. Especially because the court recognizes the existence of parental rights even while ruling to override them. Additionally, the purported legitimacy of being forcibly vaccinated by the state would demolish any bodily autonomy argument which could be made to assert a child's right to vaccinate.

>Sure they can

A dodge. If there are theraputic vaccines (arguably a contradiction in terms), then they are legally distinguishible from non-theraputic ones. The original comment (about "parental rights") was clearly referring to this particular non-theraputic HPV vaccine and others like it. Let's stay on topic.

>A dodge. To be clear

I don't think it's at all illegitmate to presume that at least one Amish child in the history of Amish children has desired a vaccine and was told no by his or her parents. Throw in literally every other similarly-situated religious group and we're talking about a significant number of people.

If the right is truly fundamental, it's a right denied regardless of whether the child lawyered up and took it to the Supreme Court. The Amish community would be massacred Waco-style if there were even hints that this precious, fundamental right was being denied to children (if you may recall another child-protecting operation). That is, of course, assuming that anyone genuinely believed this right to exist. Which as a general matter they do not and never have.

The fringe movement is the one putting parental rights in scare quotes and treating children as adults (except when in the womb, never there).

So, in summary, people who put parental rights in scare quotes while asserting invented rights as a means to acquire access to children are indeed the reason for which civilization has developed the venerable age of consent law.

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