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Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

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Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#101

Post by redcobra762 »

npsomaratna wrote: post #85
redcobra762 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, sorry. These are all defeated by hiring contractors. The real issues are, ironically, the collaborative barriers. Different cultures have different standards of work, a different working culture, and honestly different time zones. The “24 hour dev shop” is a risk, but work moving overseas is only a problem at the commodified software level, like a SaaS b2b where a shit tool with one little innovation saves five m…

Not necessarily. Consider this situation: you hire a contractor. They work for you for several years, and then you fire them. The contractor goes to the labor court in their country and files a claim stating that, yes, their contract says that they are an independent contractor, but no, since you've employed them "full-time" for several years continuously, they are a defacto/de jure employee. (Which is a valid argume…

You don’t fire contractors, their contract just ends. Additionally, the contract is often with the company, not the individual, so their employees aren’t in any legal sense working “for” you. If an employee wants to litigate, they’re opposing the contracting company, not you.

This comes with some downsides of its own, but generally this circumvents most labor issues. And of course anyone can sue for any reason, but if the argument is that the individual will pester you with lawsuits, can’t anyone do that to anyone else about anything?

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#102

Post by npsomaratna »

redcobra762 wrote: post #101
npsomaratna wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. Consider this situation: you hire a contractor. They work for you for several years, and then you fire them. The contractor goes to the labor court in their country and files a claim stating that, yes, their contract says that they are an independent contractor, but no, since you've employed them "full-time" for several years continuously, they are a defacto/de jure employee. (Which is a valid argume…

You don’t fire contractors, their contract just ends. Additionally, the contract is often with the company, not the individual, so their employees aren’t in any legal sense working “for” you. If an employee wants to litigate, they’re opposing the contracting company, not you. This comes with some downsides of its own, but generally this circumvents most labor issues. And of course anyone can sue for any reason, but i…

Fair enough, yes. If you're contracting with a third-party company that takes up the risk of hiring the employee, that does circumvent these issues.

Re: the lawsuits—yes, the barrier to initiate litigation is low (in most countries); but in my experience, most folks only start litigation when they feel significantly wronged.

Problem is, given the difference in cultures (something you pointed out earlier), an act by the company that is perfectly standard in the U.S. might be interpreted very differently by someone from another country.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#103

Post by Kon5ole »

How is productivity measured in the kinds of jobs that can be done from home?

For manufacturing it's easy - just measure the output per day and number of working hours spent. But how is it done for finance, marketing, software development, creative work and such where the output is either limited (you don't need more financial reporting than last month) or is entirely different in scope and complexity every time?

If productivity could be objectively measured it seems to me it would be easy to determine objectively whether WFH is better or worse, but the discussion seems to be mostly based on personal opinions. Some feel that workers must be slacking off at home, some feel that they get much more done from home.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#104

Post by mirekrusin »

randomdata wrote: post #56
makeitdouble wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most companies option B has been on the table for a very long time and they most probably partially took it while asking their workers to keep coming to the office up until recently. CS is the running joke, but server management, manual data processing, moderation etc. have been prime candidates for outsourcing for a long time. The reason one's job is/was not outsourced has I think little to do about whether gener…

> In most companies option B has been on the table for a very long time Mom and Pop may have always been well positioned to fully embrace outsourcing, but they tend to just copy what they see big companies do without any thought. Additionally, where they do put in thought, they tend to lean “shop local” and see offshoring as a threat to their entire business. As for those big companies, truly embracing option B has b…

Difference in timezone is also something that immediately brings attention to "who's going to be managing that?".

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#105

Post by allset_ »

rebeccaskinner wrote: post #39
ryanSrich wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managing 50+ remote workers taught me that results matter, not hours. It's all about the output. Work asynchronously, focus on the end goal, and as long as it's legal and ethical, the 'how' and 'when' are often irrelevant. Traditional managers struggle with this mindset, often due to their own managers outdated approaches. The real game changer is axing all scheduled internal meetings. No standups, no weekly grooming…

I started managing a team with the “no meetings, let people do good work” philosophy and I can just say that I’m glad I was given the space as a new manager to find my feet, because I didn’t find that it worked well when taken to an extreme. Remote work offers very little structure. As someone who thrives on autonomy and chafes at process this always felt great to me, but a lot of people thrive with a bit of structur…

> 5 to 6 hours of standing meetings each week

Wow that is a lot. That is (almost) a WHOLE DAY of meetings each week just for syncs.

I can only provide my own anecdotes, but I'm at 0.5-1hr for standup status-report type meetings.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#106

Post by falsandtru »

SoftTalker wrote: post #2

Most employees can screw around websurfing or shopping just as well at work as at home. They mostly do it because they are bored. Give them interesting, meaningful work and they will be productive.

It is interesting that this opinion is getting high marks in HN. Useful information for employers.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#107

Post by PeterStuer »

jfoutz wrote: post #44
randomdata wrote: post #7

> If remote work boosts productivity in a substantial way, then it should improve productivity performance Not necessarily given the methodology. For example, if remote work allows a worker to do their laundry in parallel where they would be otherwise unable to in an office, their productivity has increased, but the gains would not show up in the study. It observes industry productivity, not work productivity.

Although it is pretty strong evidence office space is a boondoggle. That’s a lot of pointless overhead costs that hurt the bottom line. I like seeing my peers in person. I like hashing things out in person. Apparently that’s a waste of time and money.

You forget that the same 'investors' that own the companies, also own the buildings and all the companies that finance, build and service the buildings as well as the whole 'economy' fueled by employees commuting and lunching etc.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#108

Post by hffgj »

Kon5ole wrote: post #103

How is productivity measured in the kinds of jobs that can be done from home? For manufacturing it's easy - just measure the output per day and number of working hours spent. But how is it done for finance, marketing, software development, creative work and such where the output is either limited (you don't need more financial reporting than last month) or is entirely different in scope and complexity every time? If…

[dead]

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#109

Post by PeterStuer »

williamcotton wrote: post #10
aurareturn wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Give them interesting, meaningful work and they will be productive. How much meaningful and interesting work do you think exists in this world? Every time this topic gets brought up, someone will say "Just give people interesting work, pay them well, don't micromanage them!" as if these jobs grow on trees. And even if these jobs do exist, they're usually reserved for workers who are extremely motivated and capable -…

> How much meaningful and interesting work do you think exists in this world? If you're willing to take a salary cut, lots.

Unpaid 'work' is usually referred to as a 'hobby'.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#110

Post by 331c8c71 »

bilekas wrote: post #89
Garlef wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s a lot of pointless overhead costs that hurt the bottom line. Or put the other way: Remote work let's the employee pay for the office space.

Not quite, you're going to be paying rent for example regardless, you may have to invest in some office furniture which is usually subsidized but if not then consider the savings you would make through the year overall, perhaps transportation costs, lunches etc. Things add up fiscally. Ignoring the lifestyle benefits.

In many places on Earth one would need to pay a substantially higher rent/price to get an extra room to use as an office. And in a family situation one would ideally need two extra rooms...
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