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Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years (1998)

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Re: Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years (1998)

#101

Post by dang »

jms703 wrote: post #89
dang wrote: post #83

16 years' worth of threads: (edit: Reposts are fine after a year or so; links to past threads are just to satisfy extra-curious readers) Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years (1998) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33287618 - Oct 2022 (112 comments) Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years (1998) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27411276 - June 2021 (115 comments) Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years…

If only there was a way to let poster know about past threads before posting...

Reposts are fine after a year or so! This is in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html.

When a link has had significant discussion in the last year, the software will normally redirect the submitter to the previous thread rather than allow a repost through.

Re: Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years (1998)

#102

Post by ipnon »

medler wrote: post #73

This essay holds a special place in my heart, since I first read it as a teenager when I was just starting to learn to code. Re-reading it now, I was surprised to see references to Malcom Gladwell, since I didn’t remember Outliers becoming a thing until much later. Then when I saw the reference to Ratatouille, I realized the article had been updated since its posting in 1998. The original is still available on archiv…

I can see myself now, reading this in the university library computer lab a decade ago. And now I've taught myself programming. The journey was much more difficult and winding than I was imagining it back then!

Re: Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years (1998)

#103

Post by bombcar »

bee_rider wrote: post #38
ricardo81 wrote: post #10

I can't source the video that I watched 5-6 years ago [0] but it made a point about the increasing numbers of programmers and how the majority had less than 5 years of experience. It made sense in the context of IT/web continually having a larger involvement in our lives. [0] https://youtu.be/ecIWPzGEbFc?si=A4qBR2YdX-0CV2bM thanks to comment by wild_egg Can safely say after 20 years that there's maybe a bunch of info…

It is a rapidly advancing field because it is young, so it makes sense that we’d accumulate a lot of ephemeral information. It feels like we’re still in the alchemist days. Eventually the chemists will come along. They’ll systemize our ad-hoc observations and jettison a ton of them. Until then… Neuton was an alchemist and he still made some pretty big contributions.

The chemists are already here, the Knuths and such - it's just being ignored or isn't directly "relevant" yet.

It's like building buildings without "building science" - which, surprisingly, we have actually been doing in many ways to the current date.

There aren't really formal schools of "be a carpenter and build a house" - it's all very master/apprentice even if it is not formally so everywhere. And since things like "energy usage" of the building didn't really matter until recently, many buildings just kept being built the way they always have.

Now things like "can we keep this building comfortable at much less energy usage with some additional up-front costs" are coming to the forefront, and how buildings are built is slowly changing.

Compared to that, software is very in its infancy, because the real only bottom line items are "does it mostly work" and "did it not cost infinity dollars more than it made".

Re: Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years (1998)

#104

Post by ska »

syndicatedjelly wrote: post #2

Great article. At 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week - 10,000 hours of practice will take 250 work weeks to achieve. That’s about 5 years of nearly non-stop programming. Realistically, it takes closer to 10 years to achieve that goal.

The 10,000 hour heuristic isn't particularly accurate, it's just popular.

FWIW, 10 years professional experience seems to be about right, give or take, to make a solid developer. I don't think I've ever met anyone who really got there in 5. Some people shave a few years off by having done it obsessively as a teen also, but at some point that typically overlaps anyway.

Of course there is also the old saw about 1 year, 10 times being a problem. I've met plenty of developers with >10 years experience that weren't that solid, too...

Re: Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years (1998)

#105

Post by jeremyloy_wt »

freedmand wrote: post #45
calibas wrote: post #28

> The key is deliberative practice: not just doing it again and again, but challenging yourself with a task that is just beyond your current ability, trying it, analyzing your performance while and after doing it, and correcting any mistakes. Then repeat. And repeat again. I think this is the really important part, you have to challenge yourself and go outside of your comfort zones to keep learning.

I wonder how people’s learning habits will change with AI tools like GitHub Copilot. I used it for several months but randomly got logged out and am now finding myself valuing the slight inconvenience of looking up official documentation (and surprised how much more sluggish I felt for the first week). Going through extra steps to learn something through primary sources and valuing being uncomfortable at times are im…

I personally think learning how to use ChatGPT and the like IS going out of the comfort zone.

To make an analogy to music, I see it like brass players at the advent of the valve.

It’s a new way of playing the instrument. The old ways and new ways aren’t congruent in all ways, but the new way does seem to have a higher skill ceiling

Re: Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years (1998)

#106

Post by bombcar »

skeeter2020 wrote: post #19
yonaguska wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only people I've seen do the bootcamps with success were already very smart and/or coming from technical or heavy math backgrounds.

Glad to see at least another perspective more or less echo my experiences/observations. You can't discount motivation, and bootcamps are filled with either those chomping to learn and explore, or those looking for the next goldrush. Adding to the challenge of differentiating is sometimes they are the same person.

If you're skilled/smart/whatever you're gonna be fine, usually, so let's discount those and set them aside.

There's definitely a cohort of "moderately capable at plugging away" type developer that can successfully come out of a bootcamp, and it's usually something like this path:

bootcamp - headhunter agency that needs bodies - develop familiarity/skill with the toolset - hired directly via some other company.

Less "startup valley next great thing" and more "updating the Java application for a change in the tax code this year" style corporate programming (which is the vast majority of all programming).

Re: Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years (1998)

#107

Post by bombcar »

joseda-hg wrote: post #68
skeeter2020 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't done one, but have hired out of them. Limited data conclusion: just like traditionally trained developers it's hit or miss. Best results: some other "classic training" (like physics or chemistry or engineering) with a desired career change == advanced junior with an accelerated learning curve. If you want to add motivated newbies to the parts of your software where pure programming is not as critical they can…

Did a 2-year, there's people that graduated there that to this day can't answer FizzBuzz, in that same group, there was a marine biologist that was looking for a change, I'm saddened that the former will probably be what people think when they see our diploma

If it makes you feel better, past one job or so out of whatever training/college, nobody actually cares, except perhaps the HR automatic resume sorter.

Re: Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years (1998)

#108

Post by dpritchett »

mp05 wrote: post #97
fnordpiglet wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After 40 years of programming, 33 of that professionally, I can’t think of anything that was a waste to learn other than scrum. Syntax is something I never learned, I programmed with man pages and manuals open at all times. But every language and technology I learned taught me something useful about a fundamental problem in computing and systems. The way we address problems gets wrapped in different clothes but the p…

> I can’t think of anything that was a waste to learn other than scrum. Believe me, I have plenty of criticisms of that entire culture but it has a lot of good ideas. What in particular (besides the obvious overwrought ceremony) do you find not worthwhile?

The more skilled I become over the decades the more I prefer either Hickey’s hammock-driven development or a simple kanban setup.

Re: Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years (1998)

#109

Post by jrpelkonen »

dukeofdoom wrote: post #48

It's never been easier then now. For example, if you want to learn how to make games... There's a guy on youtube called clearcode. He will teach you how to make games, in a Bob Ross voice...pretty much from scratch. You can also use ChatGPT to help you out. The resources for learning are so much better. Socratic method of just asking questions is now possible with AI. I think Sam Altman said that he is seeing x3 prod…

Personally, I’d like to see the data/research behind the “3x” claim to buy it. Especially when it is hard to imagine Sam Altman as an unbiased observer when it comes to benefits of AI.

Re: Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years (1998)

#110

Post by benzible »

mp05 wrote: post #97
fnordpiglet wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After 40 years of programming, 33 of that professionally, I can’t think of anything that was a waste to learn other than scrum. Syntax is something I never learned, I programmed with man pages and manuals open at all times. But every language and technology I learned taught me something useful about a fundamental problem in computing and systems. The way we address problems gets wrapped in different clothes but the p…

> I can’t think of anything that was a waste to learn other than scrum. Believe me, I have plenty of criticisms of that entire culture but it has a lot of good ideas. What in particular (besides the obvious overwrought ceremony) do you find not worthwhile?

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35857463
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