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We need technology that is less immersive, not more

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Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#101
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could really say this about anything, the only moral to the story is that people have to work to pay the bills and the work that pays is the unglamorous stuff that needs doing. I believe this has been true throughout human history. The greatest artists and thinkers throughout history have earned their keep by providing services to the wealthy or teaching paying students (also often wealthy). There are upsides, th…

the work that pays is the unglamorous stuff that needs doing no, the work that pays is the unglamorous stuff that someone wants to get done to make a profit. the stuff that actually needs doing is the stuff that would be a benefit for our society.

"Profit" is just the difference between what people are willing to pay for a service and the full cost of what it takes to provide that service (which itself is defined as how much the different suppliers could be making doing other stuff). Business owners are rewarded for shifting resources away from activities that consumers don't value highly (as evidenced by their willingness to pay for them) to ones that they do. If you feel that businesses are focusing on the wrong things, spend your money differently.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#102

One compelling theory for why we have not encountered intelligent life is that any sufficiently advanced civilization will eventually stop exploring the universe and immerse themselves entirely in virtual reality, to the point that they harness the total output of their star for computation, and disappear. Relativity means that the Star Trek vision of a galaxy spanning society is probably an incoherent fantasy. Why p…

An even darker take, if some renegade member of an advanced alien race does decide to spend a lot of resources on exploring the universe, and gains the means to do so, the other members of their species may very well plug them into a simulation while they are sleeping and make them think they are exploring the cosmos.

Unless a species is completely post scarcity, there is a strong ethical argument to be made that this is the correct thing to do, versus spending a lot of resources on "mere exploration",

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#103

"I hope you’ll agree that humanity has a variety of important engineering problems to solve, and nicer-looking graphics is quite low on that list." I used to sneer at the social value of entertainment. Then covid lockdowns hit. I spent a lot of time playing Factorio. When professional sports resumed playing (in empty stadiums, with fake crowd noise on the broadcasts) I was happy to sit on the couch after work and wat…

I appreciate the comment, especially with the example with the hypothetical brain surgeon. I've also anecdotally known people personally who have become accomplished in academic research, who preferred easy-to-access entertainment to decompress after a difficult day of work. So, work on entertainment does have important value to many people.

But at the same time, on a broader point, the author has a compelling general idea that it can be helpful to question how you spend your time away from work. I've spoken with people—and have personally experienced—a satisfaction from physical hobbies outside of computer interaction. Rock climbing is especially popular among the people I know (even those with busy schedules), along with martial arts such as BJJ or judo. I also know a couple people (one personally, and another impersonally through his biography as a novelist named "What I Talk About When I Talk About Running") whose life enjoyment is closely tied to their passion for long-distance running.

Outside of physical activity, other low-technology ways of entertainment will remain important. Reading books, especially classical ones, can improve one's writing. I've also read about chess players who have attributed their strong ability to plan ahead—in life and martial arts—to their passion for the game. I've additionally known people whose interests in music performance and production led them to develop good friendships with others. Naturally, this can apply to immersive technology: video streaming or high-graphics video games also have the ability to inspire people in their day-to-day life, or help people make meaningful connections.

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My source of skepticism is therefore not with the people working toward on nicer-looking graphics, as highlighted by the author, but rather with the people who apply psychology in video game design to make certain video games addictive—especially those with free-to-play models, which employ gameplay loops to keep people grinding for rewards even when the game stops feeling fun. I think the author is focusing on the wrong part of the industry: certain game designers have had a larger role with making certain video games have negative effects, as evidenced by somewhat-recent successful lawsuits against game companies that employed loot boxes and overly-easy ways to make in-game purchases in certain games targeted toward children.

Video games and streaming can absolutely have a healthy place in one's life—especially productions created for the love of the art instead of primarily for the money—but only in moderation and not at the excessive expense of other ways to spend one's free time. Graphics development isn't a problem at all, but I do think many people's lives can become richer if they also give passions that don't require a personal computing device a strong chance.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#104
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could really say this about anything, the only moral to the story is that people have to work to pay the bills and the work that pays is the unglamorous stuff that needs doing. I believe this has been true throughout human history. The greatest artists and thinkers throughout history have earned their keep by providing services to the wealthy or teaching paying students (also often wealthy). There are upsides, th…

the work that pays is the unglamorous stuff that needs doing no, the work that pays is the unglamorous stuff that someone wants to get done to make a profit. the stuff that actually needs doing is the stuff that would be a benefit for our society.

Right, the key reason this line stings so bad is precisely that 99.9% of money and effort spent on advertising is capitalism-friction. It's waste-energy. It's escalating zero-sum games. It emphatically does not need doing. It's an accident.

[EDIT] And that's the optimistic take. In fact a great deal of it is harmful, not just wasteful.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#106
post #74

"I hope you’ll agree that humanity has a variety of important engineering problems to solve, and nicer-looking graphics is quite low on that list." I used to sneer at the social value of entertainment. Then covid lockdowns hit. I spent a lot of time playing Factorio. When professional sports resumed playing (in empty stadiums, with fake crowd noise on the broadcasts) I was happy to sit on the couch after work and wat…

Nobody disputes that entertainment has value. The article is about the fact that so much talent and resources is funneled into immersion. Using your neurosurgeon example, I posit that having fewer VR headsets will not prevent the doctor from unwinding. Nor will having mobile phones with less vibrant colors or application with lower engagement metrics.

There is a tragic flaw in your logic. There’s probably 10x engineers working on advertising then there is gaming (let alone VR). It’s not that big of an industry and doesn’t have the mass adoption attention destroying ad-driven social media does.

Statistically, the neurosurgeon is unwinding on TikTok and hating themselves for it.

Could VR become immersive and an ad-addled attention destroying mess? Yes we should probably stop that from happening. But otherwise this warning is too early.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#107

One compelling theory for why we have not encountered intelligent life is that any sufficiently advanced civilization will eventually stop exploring the universe and immerse themselves entirely in virtual reality, to the point that they harness the total output of their star for computation, and disappear. Relativity means that the Star Trek vision of a galaxy spanning society is probably an incoherent fantasy. Why p…

Working on my own kind of metaverse I've grappled with this issue, and that is why I hope to use it to improve physical space endeavors as opposed to replacing them. This really started for me in two places: the newer one was when I pitched to the department of education for a grant program a software I called Meta-Education Environment for Simulation and Gaming (MEESG), aimed particularly at assisting in training of high-risk vocations (such as high voltage-systems repair)... but after I thought about it, I realized that the earlier inspiration was the VBS simulation I trained in the military and how I noticed the benefits directly (later leading to many hours of Arma2/Arma3 playtime, the civilian version of VBS).

So the main fight I see in the future is those who think (similar to the article) all this immersion effort is vapid and superficial. I don't think it is, and for more than just training, but also for rapid iteration in a simulated physical space that doesn't waste actual physical resources until a better product is developed. Ergo, I feel there is hidden value in the virtual space yet untapped in the wider market for combining fun and relaxation with teaching valuable things about the real world.

Just for example, I have been adding my local flora/fauna and edibility properties and medicial properties to one of my gameworlds recently, which could help me accelerate my learning of that particular real world thing but also make the gameworld more fun and interactive.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#109

"I hope you’ll agree that humanity has a variety of important engineering problems to solve, and nicer-looking graphics is quite low on that list." I used to sneer at the social value of entertainment. Then covid lockdowns hit. I spent a lot of time playing Factorio. When professional sports resumed playing (in empty stadiums, with fake crowd noise on the broadcasts) I was happy to sit on the couch after work and wat…

This comment made me sad. I would hope we aim for jobs that don‘t invoke the feeling of „trudging“ and the need for „entertainment“.

All jobs have a repetitive aspect, exactly because we want experts in those jobs to do the job. But for the experts the work may often be boring and repetitive.

I am pretty sure most of a surgeon's surgeries are NOT exhilarating experiences for them, but rather routine activities. Similarly for lawyers drafting contracts, software engineers developing web backends, construction workers building houses, or singers singing their repertoire.

Not all of these jobs can be automated, so some routine will always exist.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#110
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the work that pays is the unglamorous stuff that needs doing no, the work that pays is the unglamorous stuff that someone wants to get done to make a profit. the stuff that actually needs doing is the stuff that would be a benefit for our society.

"Profit" is just the difference between what people are willing to pay for a service and the full cost of what it takes to provide that service (which itself is defined as how much the different suppliers could be making doing other stuff). Business owners are rewarded for shifting resources away from activities that consumers don't value highly (as evidenced by their willingness to pay for them) to ones that they do…

Blaming consumers for the modern advertising industry is like blaming Soviet factory workers for bread lines.
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